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Thread: are you THIS guy?

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple
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    Default are you THIS guy?

    very extreme but thought provoking article/blog (whatever you wanna call it).

    http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

    ++stolen from another message board++
    Quote Originally Posted by Milen View Post
    In the case I described, my teammates are not depending on me, they are either mindlessly feeding the premade with more favor or they are sitting nearby.
    And I couldn't care less about the queue time of the premade. The only factor that determines my decisions is: What is best for me?

  2. #2
    Sword of Telara Wawer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moecoastie View Post
    very extreme but thought provoking article/blog (whatever you wanna call it).

    http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

    ++stolen from another message board++
    No picture and cartoon .
    I am not going to read that wall of text.
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  3. #3
    Ascendant Vaine's Avatar
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    I read this article before and it's so true.

    Bad players will whine about a FOTM being OP. Good players will do something about it.

    For example: It's pretty obvious that cabalists are FOTM spec this weekend. 90% of the player base ran to the forums while the rest of us made counter specs or our own versions. For example I ran the pvp tank build (or my own cabalist) and another of our warrior ran VK and marked 'known' cabalists.

    Same with FOTM paragons in 1.3. There are good specs that counter them like zin's ragestorm, duracell or dom/chloro.

    Also notice it's always the same 20-30 people who complain on the forums after each patch. Ironically they are the ones that say they are 'skilled' compared to everyone else. A perfect example of whom the article targets.
    Last edited by Vaine; 08-08-2011 at 03:45 AM.
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    Plane Walker Mlaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moecoastie View Post
    very extreme but thought provoking article/blog (whatever you wanna call it).

    http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html
    didnt provoke much thought, This is a man who wants to sell his book on a topic that people already know..

    By his very own definition on gaming he is playing to win and anything you do to achieve that goal is all good, surely if you have the intelligence to hack a system and make gaming that much easier it would be all good and if someone calls you a cheat well then they are a scrub..
    Yes people make thier own guidelines by which they play what he didnt cover was those that play to have fun as they win to him that would be they are a scrub to anyone else it makes sense, as if your winning and game is boring i.e farming without challange you'd probally go play something else.

    So to sum up for those who cant be bothered to read the article:

    A man is trying to sell his book he justifies his own actions by insulting others style of gamming whilst trying to put a psychology view point to it hmmm bit like a typical forum user I'd say.. So save your cash and keep posting here
    Sureen - Conspiracy

    A post spoken from the Heart contains passion, A post spoken from the head leads to intelligent debate,
    but since the majority of what I read is full of crap I guess most talk out of thier Arse

  5. #5
    Shield of Telara Elerina's Avatar
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    Yup, lots of truth in it. Very harsh but that's how it is.

    Though he kind of disqualifies MMOs because of the weird rule set.

    Oh and you should read his little paragraph about "fun".

    The “fun” of the great debate, at least to me, occurs when you push the opponent by arguing your point, then that opponent is able to push back forcefully, yet you are able to withstand this thrust. If you can simply push the opponent over in any of a dozen ways of your choosing, there is no debate to be had. If after your simplest preliminary argument, the opponent can push you over, at least you had a taste of his prowess, but again, there was no real debate to be had. Only when you can each respond to the other’s points and keep a meaningful debate going is there anything truly interesting going on. I would call this “fun.”
    So much for pug-stompers

  6. #6
    Rift Master nacho's Avatar
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    Oh god, the Street Fighter scrub rant.
    Such self-serving drivel needs to be kept in the bowels of the internet where it belongs.

    Social games like MMORPGs aren't bound to those rules, even if you ignore the fact that MMORPGs have unfairness as one of their main qualities.

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    Last edited by nacho; 08-08-2011 at 03:56 AM.

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    Seriously, suggest me your drugs. I'll give them a try just to know how is it to be awesome and cool like the best Defiant mage I have ever encountered in wfs!
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  8. #8
    Shield of Telara Elerina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psykoz View Post
    Ha ha, that made me giggle ^^

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mlaar View Post
    didnt provoke much thought, This is a man who wants to sell his book on a topic that people already know..

    By his very own definition on gaming he is playing to win and anything you do to achieve that goal is all good, surely if you have the intelligence to hack a system and make gaming that much easier it would be all good and if someone calls you a cheat well then they are a scrub..
    Yes people make thier own guidelines by which they play what he didnt cover was those that play to have fun as they win to him that would be they are a scrub to anyone else it makes sense, as if your winning and game is boring i.e farming without challange you'd probally go play something else.

    So to sum up for those who cant be bothered to read the article:

    A man is trying to sell his book he justifies his own actions by insulting others style of gamming whilst trying to put a psychology view point to it hmmm bit like a typical forum user I'd say.. So save your cash and keep posting here

    well, if you like reading walls of text...about 3 pages over there is a section on "cheating." I see where you came up with your statement from the initial page but if you read further he addresses the "cheating" aspect.

    Again, this is a very extreme and somewhat narrow-minded perspective but as with anything..you need to pick and choose what you feel is relevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milen View Post
    In the case I described, my teammates are not depending on me, they are either mindlessly feeding the premade with more favor or they are sitting nearby.
    And I couldn't care less about the queue time of the premade. The only factor that determines my decisions is: What is best for me?

  10. #10
    Ascendant Ajax1114's Avatar
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    The article has some good points, such as "don't make excuses," "play to win," and so on. However, the message gets iffy to me at the connection between "scrub" and calling tactics "cheap."

    I understand that video games are a different medium than real life- MMOs even more so, considering that you could be playing against someone in another state or country. But that fact doesn't change that real people are involved. When someone is killed repeatedly with no chance of escape, most would call it "griefing." The behavior is almost akin to torture, though the obvious caveat is that the player being abused can simply log off at any time. I can't help but think that many who take the article to heart would see the aforementioned "griefing" as "playing to win" and think of the grieved player as a scrub.

    Other than that, my main issue with the article is that competitive sports in real life have limitations. There are tactics that are considered cheap and players can get into trouble for using them. Basketball has "fouls." In Baseball, players can get kicked out of the game for yelling and disagreeing with an umpire. The point is, the article's message is far too general. I saw no emphasis on "this thought process only applies to video games," or "don't take this too far." Just a repeated mantra that two definitions of players exist in competitive play: Scrubs and Winners. One black and one white- no gray.

    Glancing over some later articles, these issues may be covered, but on its own, the first article comes across as narrow-minded and could be grossly misinterpreted.

  11. #11
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    RIFT is the pinnacle of gear based PvP and has balance issues as bad as paragon.
    It is impossible to actually be a scrub when the design has unfairness as the intent (it is an MMORPG).

    ~-=^*THE MORE YOU KNOW~-=^*
    Last edited by Valanceer; 08-08-2011 at 12:46 PM.

  12. #12
    Plane Walker Mlaar's Avatar
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    Thing is this guys sweeping statements hold no real truth unless it fits your ideals they are simply one person trying to convince everyone that their beliefs are how gaming should be..

    For example when I was a younger man playing competitive sports I would play to win you progressed up the league tables earnt promotions to next divisions etc etc...

    If I were to enter computer game competions with prize money involved yes I would game to win mmm money

    Again as a younger lad, games were serious buisness prestige gained from others acknowledging your skill, respect was gained from being a fearsome opponent so you played to win..

    But im older now with more pressing goals in rl i.e wheres the money comming from to play the games, did the dog just crap on the kitchen floor.. did the baby just eat that bar of soap and should i tell the missus ohh the stresses, So I log in and play the game for fun it helps remove all the worries for a short time, By the authors view point that would equate to being a scrub the reality of it is Im a person having a laugh and enjoying the moments of lesiure time that I can grab the fact that Im still good at what I do would hold no standing in his eyes as its all about the win!! I am now at a stage in life where winning is good but a fair and balanced game where everyone is having a good time is far more important. So by my definition that makes me a far better Gamer than the author will ever be.
    Sureen - Conspiracy

    A post spoken from the Heart contains passion, A post spoken from the head leads to intelligent debate,
    but since the majority of what I read is full of crap I guess most talk out of thier Arse

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mlaar View Post
    Thing is this guys sweeping statements hold no real truth unless it fits your ideals they are simply one person trying to convince everyone that their beliefs are how gaming should be..

    For example when I was a younger man playing competitive sports I would play to win you progressed up the league tables earnt promotions to next divisions etc etc...

    If I were to enter computer game competions with prize money involved yes I would game to win mmm money

    Again as a younger lad, games were serious buisness prestige gained from others acknowledging your skill, respect was gained from being a fearsome opponent so you played to win..

    But im older now with more pressing goals in rl i.e wheres the money comming from to play the games, did the dog just crap on the kitchen floor.. did the baby just eat that bar of soap and should i tell the missus ohh the stresses, So I log in and play the game for fun it helps remove all the worries for a short time, By the authors view point that would equate to being a scrub the reality of it is Im a person having a laugh and enjoying the moments of lesiure time that I can grab the fact that Im still good at what I do would hold no standing in his eyes as its all about the win!! I am now at a stage in life where winning is good but a fair and balanced game where everyone is having a good time is far more important. So by my definition that makes me a far better Gamer than the author will ever be.
    Your scenario is valid and understandable and Im sure there are many who can relate to you. Unfortunately, I feel that maybe you guys are playing the wrong type of game. PvP has always had drama, controversy, imbalance, injustice, and competitiveness. Its the nature of PvP. If you are truly looking for what you say you are looking for, why would you pick this game?
    Quote Originally Posted by Milen View Post
    In the case I described, my teammates are not depending on me, they are either mindlessly feeding the premade with more favor or they are sitting nearby.
    And I couldn't care less about the queue time of the premade. The only factor that determines my decisions is: What is best for me?

  14. #14
    Plane Walker Mlaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moecoastie View Post
    Its the nature of PvP. If you are truly looking for what you say you are looking for, why would you pick this game?
    I love the social aspect. I love progressing my character and I love a good scrap with people who are reasonably intelligent, But just because im killing the opponent dosnt mean I find camping a spawn point enjoyable infact though it means im winning I find it a hollow victory I would rather walk off and hope the opponents break through, sure I go in to win but that is not all I go in to pvp for, the enjoyment of the game is far more impotant.

    The nature of PvP is whatever the player decides it to be, some will want winning at all costs and fair play to them, some like me just enjoy pitting skills against others. In all honesty as long as a person who choses to participate thier is no right or wrong way, I even consider taunting / towing insults against the opponent valid tactics if it leads them to a mistake but only during the game, once the match is over its all good no reason to insult people no matter what skill level they are at..

    To many these days are quick to place a label on a player out of game which shows a lack of decency on thier behalf, Yes im old fashioned in my beliefs but ive always been that way and as the saying goes.. a leopard cant change his spots.

    so to sum up I pvp for a lot of reasons social, to win, for fun, stress relief are just a few Im happy with the way I play I adapt as needed I make mistakes occasionly which I try to learn from.
    You may choose to play to win and I can respect that, I'll even be thier to back you up, but camp a spawn point for an entire game and your on your own till they push past and the battle commences once again then I'll watch your back once more
    Sureen - Conspiracy

    A post spoken from the Heart contains passion, A post spoken from the head leads to intelligent debate,
    but since the majority of what I read is full of crap I guess most talk out of thier Arse

  15. #15
    Rift Disciple Sun Tzu's Avatar
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    i think that made some great points.

    Scrubs--i didn't really get the reference until i read that.
    i see this behavior constantly. like players not selecting certain powers because they don't "feel"
    like they are any help (disarm anyone?) and then go on to rant about how X or Y are OP. despite the
    fact that they are provided tools to counter the problem they are having. but cant fathom changing specs

    while others view certain tactics as unfair, simply because it makes things harder for how they are used to playing all the time. (lingering wounds)
    thus making them adjust to specific encounters ( or better yet expect a even fight from every spec they run into without any thoughts of counter specs)

    it doesn't matter what the game is like--how it plays-- what powers are available to everyone---if you don't adapt you will lose to people that are willing to. plain and simple

    there is a huge difference in being "cheap"(as a scrub would say) and being a Greifer that enjoys ruining
    someone game play when its clear someone does not wish to continue pvp you.
    that kinda thing is not sporty (spawn camping)
    but in WFs you scrubs need to get your big boy pants on and realize there are players out there that are gonna use everything they can to beat you down. know your enemy

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