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Thread: Roges - The Broken Combat Class

  1. #1
    Telaran
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    Thumbs down Roges - The Broken Combat Class

    I think Trion needs to step back and decide what they want Rogues to be.

    Right now there are two complaints about Rogue, two things they are good at. Neither of which have anything to do with combat.

    Complaint #1
    That Rogue keeps Sapping everyone at the Flag in Codex and no one can cap it.

    I agree Sap is broke and is being abused and needs to be fixed. Unless of course Rogue are just supposed to be super annoying classes that can't fight so they run around and sap people.

    Complaint #2
    That Rogue Stole our flag in Whitefall and phase shifted half way across the board.

    I agree to a lesser extent this is also very annoying. It's like how Druids in Warsong Gultch in wow could turn into cat from and run back the flag. Not quite as bad as that because a Riftstalker Rogue is easy to kill and a Druid is like a warden spec cleric.


    You never hear the complaints oh I can't kill Rogues or I am tired of getting owned by Rouges. The reason you never hear this is because when it comes to combat they are out matched and out of balance.

    Warriors have more armor and mitigation plus an aoe fear a stun a snare ect... And they do more burst damage so if a Warrior and a Rogue fight the Warrior can do more damage in that critical opening and survive more damage. It's that same lack of burst damage that keeps Rogues from being able to kill healers without help. Something a Warrior can do solo.

    Now let me briefly explain why they are broke for pvp but not for pve.

    In a PVE Boss fight a Rogue will start off a little slower than the other classes on damage. For a melee Rogue first he builds up 5 combo points (which start at 0 every time he switched targets) then uses a weak finisher that gives him a 60 second self buff like 50% extra damage from his poisons. Then he builds up another 5 combo points and uses his bleed like impale. Then he builds up another 5 combo points and uses his strong finisher that get's extra damage from the impale.

    Now if you are lucky enough to get off that many combos in PvP without dying or having your target die before you get your finisher (both happen all the time) then you can do a little damage as long as one of the many classes with debuff spells doesn't strip your poisons. Since you have a 50% extra poison damage finisher and a buff every 2 mins that increases your poison damage by 100% having you poisons up is vital. So do you stop attacking mid fight and let that Warrior or Mage blast you to oblivion while you rebuff? Or do you keep attacking and die because you can't do enough damage?

    Rogues are far to dependent on buffs and long combos to be an effective combat class. The best class for a Rogue to attack is another Rogue since that's the easiest class to kill and the class that will take the longest to do damage to you.

    So Rogue vs Rogue is very balanced Rogue vs anything else extremely unbalanced.

    Rogue with Sap vs enemy out of combat in Codex Out of Balance Rouge is OP unless one of his teammates is dumb enough to get in range and allow the enemy to enter combat status.

    Rogue playing rabbit with the flag in whitefall out of balance unless they are caught.

    Basically if those are the only intended uses of a Rogue then they are spot on perfect. If they are meant to be a balanced combat class they couldn't be more screwed up.

    Now begin with the insults and childish remarks or well though out informed replies. Either way looking forward you your responses.

  2. #2
    Ascendant Hartzekar's Avatar
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    First of all, you are mainly reffering to sins in the damage portion. Second, NO SIN SHOULLD EVER!!!! use Baneful Touch in PvP, because it's worse than opening with paralyzing strike. Impale and Final are sooo much better. Third, a well played sin can take down anyone 1 vs 1, but in group scenarios NB is much more effective. But everyone plays sin (sadly). Fourth, sapping is no longer effective since 1.4. Read the patch notes or even try it. Fifth, you gotta be really good at sin for people to fear you.
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    Koe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartzekar View Post
    First of all, you are mainly reffering to sins in the damage portion. Second, NO SIN SHOULLD EVER!!!! use Baneful Touch in PvP, because it's worse than opening with paralyzing strike. Impale and Final are sooo much better. Third, a well played sin can take down anyone 1 vs 1, but in group scenarios NB is much more effective. But everyone plays sin (sadly). Fourth, sapping is no longer effective since 1.4. Read the patch notes or even try it. Fifth, you gotta be really good at sin for people to fear you.
    Baneful touch has a use as it is water damage.
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    Im not sure what your asking for tbh - nerf all sap's and riftstalker blinks, but increase burst damage & have higher resists? Thats kinda breaking those souls completly.

    I play nb/mm/infil and have lots of kills on warriors, clerics and mages (as well as other rogues), kiting with some speed and using ranged attack's before heading back into melee for the kill is all win. I also take on groups of 3 in codex and can kill at least 2 if i choose the targets in the right order. Sure i die, but its all part of pvp . Getting caught by a 51sin is tricky, but "doable". Getting stunlocked by a warrior is also tricky + cabalist seem to kill everyone in whitefall since the patch - but then thats true for every other class and not exclusive to us "underpowered rogues".

    I dont agree with your comments on saps & blinks - its a valid mechanic inherent to those soul builds - a bit more burst, sure why not - but then you can always roll mm...

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    Ascendant Hartzekar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koe View Post
    Baneful touch has a use as it is water damage.
    But still, impale beats Baneful touch, as bleeds ignore armor
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    Ascendant Stay's Avatar
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    Assassin is a world PvP spec. I cringe when I see them on my team in WFs.
    If you boost them to be good in WFs, you risk overpowering them to the point of breaking world PvP.

  7. #7
    Koe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartzekar View Post
    But still, impale beats Baneful touch, as bleeds ignore armor
    Bleed lasts 31 seconds and unless you're just going to LOLAWAY you need something in between.


    Edit: Applies to Sin/13(15)BD/inf, which you should be if you're ganking, as you can go toe-to-toe once every 2 minutes. Although, DD + Serpebt's Strike is probably better.
    Last edited by Koe; 08-07-2011 at 01:20 PM.
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    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartzekar View Post
    First of all, you are mainly reffering to sins in the damage portion. Second, NO SIN SHOULLD EVER!!!! use Baneful Touch in PvP, because it's worse than opening with paralyzing strike. Impale and Final are sooo much better. Third, a well played sin can take down anyone 1 vs 1, but in group scenarios NB is much more effective. But everyone plays sin (sadly). Fourth, sapping is no longer effective since 1.4. Read the patch notes or even try it. Fifth, you gotta be really good at sin for people to fear you.
    There is no one who is good at Sin in my battle group. I am the best I have seen so far. I can kill any other rogue pretty easily it's just Warriors, Mages and Clerics that give me trouble.

    Nightblades are just a dps class if they get targeted by anyone they are dead same with marksman.

  9. #9
    Ascendant Hartzekar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rostan View Post
    There is no one who is good at Sin in my battle group. I am the best I have seen so far. I can kill any other rogue pretty easily it's just Warriors, Mages and Clerics that give me trouble.

    Nightblades are just a dps class if they get targeted by anyone they are dead same with marksman.
    Guessing you've never tried 44 NB 22 RS. Hits like a NB but survives like an RS. It's insane if played well
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartzekar View Post
    Guessing you've never tried 44 NB 22 RS. Hits like a NB but survives like an RS. It's insane if played well
    NB is weak compared to all other callings and against anyone R5 or above.
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  11. #11
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarot Qs View Post
    Im not sure what your asking for tbh - nerf all sap's and riftstalker blinks, but increase burst damage & have higher resists? Thats kinda breaking those souls completly.

    I play nb/mm/infil and have lots of kills on warriors, clerics and mages (as well as other rogues), kiting with some speed and using ranged attack's before heading back into melee for the kill is all win. I also take on groups of 3 in codex and can kill at least 2 if i choose the targets in the right order. Sure i die, but its all part of pvp . Getting caught by a 51sin is tricky, but "doable". Getting stunlocked by a warrior is also tricky + cabalist seem to kill everyone in whitefall since the patch - but then thats true for every other class and not exclusive to us "underpowered rogues".

    I dont agree with your comments on saps & blinks - its a valid mechanic inherent to those soul builds - a bit more burst, sure why not - but then you can always roll mm...
    I am saying fix sap it is being abused. I personally have no issue with the Riftstalker thing but I hear lots of people whine about it. I think Rogues need some versatility like the other classes. They are to stuck in support. If they are the lighter armor squishier melee then they should have more burst damage than the plate wearing Goliath. Maybe give them a two-handed weapon like polearms. But having to sit back as bard and hope your not attacked or marksman and hope your not attacked is not good pvp. That's just trying to get as much PVE dmg in as you can before you are killed by the first person who targets you.

    I normally stealth behind the lines and jump other rogues since I know I can kill them. But Rogues should be able to tangle with any class. I know it's not my skill while I am not the best I am above average. I study all kinds of builds and specs and try them all out. And the only thing I found is Warriors are the class to play if you like melee combat. So I am leveling one. I just think it's kinda a waste to have a class like rogue and specs like
    Blade Dancer
    Blade Dancers are masters of wielding edged weapons. They specialize in ritualized combat movements that are lightning fast. Blade Dancers can overwhelm even an accomplished opponent's defenses, setting them up for a devastating coup de grace.

    Yet a Blade Dancer can't hang with a warrior. Even though that's what the description says. I guess I am just disappointed by how weak the rogue class is. I can kill them easily on my Warrior, Mage and Cleric so they are clearly not meant for combat.

  12. #12
    Ascendant Hartzekar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koe View Post
    NB is weak compared to all other callings and against anyone R5 or above.
    NB is hard to master. But I've been totally annihilated by some NBs. A well played NB is an opponent to be feared
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    Koe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartzekar View Post
    NB is hard to master. But I've been totally annihilated by some NBs. A well played NB is an opponent to be feared
    A well played NB has no CC and piss-poor damage, especially in a 44 NB/22RS spec. All they have is CDs to piss people off because they don't die as fast as they should.
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    He is right! A well played Sin has no trouble taking down any opponent 1v1. He forgot to mention though in a group scenario a well played Sin can also annihilate an entire team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartzekar View Post
    First of all, you are mainly reffering to sins in the damage portion. Second, NO SIN SHOULLD EVER!!!! use Baneful Touch in PvP, because it's worse than opening with paralyzing strike. Impale and Final are sooo much better. Third, a well played sin can take down anyone 1 vs 1, but in group scenarios NB is much more effective. But everyone plays sin (sadly). Fourth, sapping is no longer effective since 1.4. Read the patch notes or even try it. Fifth, you gotta be really good at sin for people to fear you.
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    I r nightblade master.

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