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Thread: Rogues... I just dont understand...

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elerina View Post

    Get a freaking healing debuff or add more guys bashing on your target.
    Fell Blades champ, does 50% healing reduction, still cant dps through.

  2. #47
    Shield of Telara Elerina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skuznuts View Post
    Fell Blades champ, does 50% healing reduction, still cant dps through.
    There are videos of parachamps melting clerics. It takes a couple seconds but they can do it. Solo ... I don't agree that this should be possible but it is (p6 vs p6 btw).

    Consider gear gaps and cross healing. A NB can slowly kill a cleric for sure with half a brain. Add another high dps and the cleric is gone. Chloros/Bards/other Clerics around change this of course, who would have thought?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elerina View Post
    There are videos of parachamps melting clerics. It takes a couple seconds but they can do it. Solo ... I don't agree that this should be possible but it is (p6 vs p6 btw).

    Consider gear gaps and cross healing. A NB can slowly kill a cleric for sure with half a brain. Add another high dps and the cleric is gone. Chloros/Bards/other Clerics around change this of course, who would have thought?
    Fellblades + Anathema = Dispelled.

    Fellblades + Anathema do not apply to heals already ticking on the target, they only apply to new heals. If someone didn't already purge him clean or he didn't recast fresh HoTs, nothing is happening.

    No Nightblade is going to take down a Cleric solo unless that Cleric decides to stand in one place and the proceed to do nothing but hard cast heals. Which they don't because let's face it, Warden is OP.

    If it wasn't well them Timmy... why are there so many Wardens in PvPs?

    Nothing to see here.

    - Vybz
    Last edited by Nightwish; 08-03-2011 at 02:38 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fia View Post
    I just want to be able to survive for 10 seconds when having 2 dps on me, I don't think that's too much to ask for.
    Dedicated to the Rogues who stuck it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKoxTymkUTU
    Dedicated to the Rogue QQers and Haters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owzhYNcd4OM

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elerina View Post
    There are videos of parachamps melting clerics. It takes a couple seconds but they can do it. Solo ... I don't agree that this should be possible but it is (p6 vs p6 btw).

    Consider gear gaps and cross healing. A NB can slowly kill a cleric for sure with half a brain. Add another high dps and the cleric is gone. Chloros/Bards/other Clerics around change this of course, who would have thought?
    Because Parachamps are ******ed...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKFe_3G-aV4

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by INCdex View Post
    Played tonight against a god Cleric who never once used a heal that wasn't instant meaning all I could do it use nearly every cool down I had twice with the guy just standing there laughing at me. I put out a seriously high amount of damage on this player in a short time and would often get him down to 10% below or less for instant full health immediately.

    Took 4 people to take down this single cleric. He'd heal through all our damage while jumping around for a good 5 minutes and it was just ridiculous.

    Where is 1.4?

    I play full marksman
    I'm pretty sure what you mean to say is "I thought I could easily take down a well geared cleric specced for only heals by myself, then later 4 of us jumped him".

    For one MM is fine, if you don't do well with it then you need gear or you're doing something wrong. Also, nothing should ever be able to beat a healer 1v1. If healers can be beat 1v1 then how can they hold up a dps 1v2 or 1v1 even?

    Once again you should never be able to 1v1 a fully specialized healer.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alarox View Post
    Once again you should never be able to 1v1 a fully specialized healer.
    So you're counter is: "I gave up all my dps for healing. So I should be worth more than the average player."

    Our counter is: "We gave up all our healing to be able to dps. So we should be worth more than the average player."

    Only you can have your way? What about us?

    If you don't need your group to protect you then you really aren't the group vs group class you thought you were.

    Group vs Group means EVERYONE dies 1v1.

    Hi there, my name's Logic, I don't think we've met.

    - Vybz
    Quote Originally Posted by Fia View Post
    I just want to be able to survive for 10 seconds when having 2 dps on me, I don't think that's too much to ask for.
    Dedicated to the Rogues who stuck it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKoxTymkUTU
    Dedicated to the Rogue QQers and Haters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owzhYNcd4OM

  7. #52
    Shield of Telara Elerina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightwish View Post
    Fellblades + Anathema = Dispelled.

    Fellblades + Anathema do not apply to heals already ticking on the target, they only apply to new heals. If someone didn't already purge him clean or he didn't recast fresh HoTs, nothing is happening.

    No Nightblade is going to take down a Cleric solo unless that Cleric decides to stand in one place and the proceed to do nothing but hard cast heals. Which they don't because let's face it, Warden is OP.

    If it wasn't well them Timmy... why are there so many Wardens in PvPs?

    Nothing to see here.

    - Vybz
    So you are basically assuming the worst case scenario. Already fully hotted up warden without any debuffs but your own.

    If you jump a cleric without hots, he'll be busy to survive and can't really cleanse all your debuffs while just yawning about your dps. Of course both the clerics and the rogues c/d's come into play as well.

    I have encountered various situations where I was dotted up like a freaking Christmas tree and got jumped by a NB. There is no way you're going to get rid of those Felblades. Add any kind of CC in vital moments and a cleric will go down. Not every Cleric has a Dominator next to him who casts Deny every 10s ....
    Last edited by Elerina; 08-03-2011 at 02:51 AM.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightwish View Post
    So you're counter is: "I gave up all my dps for healing. So I should be worth more than the average player."

    Our counter is: "We gave up all our healing to be able to dps. So we should be worth more than the average player."

    Only you can have your way? What about us?

    If you don't need your group to protect you then you really aren't the group vs group class you thought you were.

    Group vs Group means EVERYONE dies 1v1.

    Hi there, my name's Logic, I don't think we've met.

    - Vybz
    For one, I'm primarily a dps, nice assumptions.

    "Worth more than the average player". What the hell is that supposed to mean. They heal everyone so they are more important? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS7nqwGt4-I

    If a healer can easily die 1v1, then all you have to do as the other team is rush in and insta kill him with 2-3 people targeting.

    Everything you say makes me think that you belive that every WF should be a dps race with no tactics involved besides "target healer (insta kill), target mage (Insta kill), target cleric (takes 3 seconds), target warrior (takes 5 seconds)" Rawr I haz leets dps"

    I'm going to explain something to you now am I recommend that you really soak this in.

    If a healer.. can not heal themselves up 1v1.. how can they heal anyone else up while in battle?

    If a healer can not heal themselves up 1v1 how can they stay alive for more than 3 seconds once a battle starts? You can't protect a healer if they are getting focused and they can't even keep themselves up against one enemy

    Before you claim to be logical, maybe you should check your own arguements first.
    Last edited by Alarox; 08-03-2011 at 03:07 AM.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elerina View Post
    So you are basically assuming the worst case scenario. Already fully hotted up warden without any debuffs but your own.

    If you jump a cleric without hots, he'll be busy to survive and can't really cleanse all your debuffs while just yawning about your dps. Of course both the clerics and the rogues c/d's come into play as well.

    I have encountered various situations where I was dotted up like a freaking Christmas tree and got jumped by a NB. There is no way you're going to get rid of those Felblades. Add any kind of CC in vital moments and a cleric will go down. Not every Cleric has a Dominator next to him who casts Deny every 10s ....
    So what you're saying is I attacked a guy with HoTs already on him in a 1v1 Situation and therefore deserve to lose.

    You got attacked by a Nightblade with someone elses DoTs on YOU and you lost. Not really 1v1 is it if someone else's dps is helping.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alarox View Post
    If a healer can not heal themselves up 1v1 how can they stay alive for more than 3 seconds once a battle starts? You can't protect a healer if they are getting focused and they can't even keep themselves up against one enemy
    Hi there, Logic here, again. That's how it's supposed to work. It's up to your team mates to peel, CC, and apply pressure to get pressure off of you.

    Group vs Group says hello to you.

    If you can keep yourself up through 3 dps then you don't really need a group to protect you do you? You just need someone to kill things as you tank the other things

    - Vybz
    Last edited by Nightwish; 08-03-2011 at 03:38 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fia View Post
    I just want to be able to survive for 10 seconds when having 2 dps on me, I don't think that's too much to ask for.
    Dedicated to the Rogues who stuck it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKoxTymkUTU
    Dedicated to the Rogue QQers and Haters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owzhYNcd4OM

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightwish View Post
    So what you're saying is I attacked a guy with HoTs already on him in a 1v1 Situation and therefore deserve to lose.

    You got attacked by a Nightblade with someone elses DoTs on YOU and you lost. Not really 1v1 is it if someone else's dps is helping.




    Hi there, Logic here, again. That's how it's supposed to work. It's up to your team mates to peel, CC, and apply pressure to get pressure off of you.

    Group vs Group says hello to you.

    If you can keep yourself up through 3 dps then you don't really need a group to protect you do you? You just need someone to kill things as you tank the other things

    - Vybz
    You're absolutely right. Let's have every PvP encounter be a dps fight where healers are just a liability.

    Enjoy your healerless WFs.

    /thread
    Last edited by Alarox; 08-03-2011 at 03:49 AM.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alarox View Post
    You're absolutely right. Let's have every PvP encounter be a dps fight where healers are just a liability.

    Enjoy your healerless WFs.

    /thread
    As opposed to a healing encounter where dps is a liability?

    Clerics are usually on both sides of the Warfront, but if both sides can't take them down as they heal themselves and everyone else to full HP what's the point again?

    - Vybz
    Quote Originally Posted by Fia View Post
    I just want to be able to survive for 10 seconds when having 2 dps on me, I don't think that's too much to ask for.
    Dedicated to the Rogues who stuck it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKoxTymkUTU
    Dedicated to the Rogue QQers and Haters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owzhYNcd4OM

  12. #57
    Shield of Telara Elerina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightwish View Post
    So what you're saying is I attacked a guy with HoTs already on him in a 1v1 Situation and therefore deserve to lose.
    Indeed. If he is prepared to your assault (in a rogue case this means: he knows you are going to attack) your enemy has the upper hand. I won't deny though, that healers (clerics) benefit the most. If a mage knows a rogue is going to attack, he can't pre-hot. But you won't catch him by surprise and he will expect your attack. A cleric with and without hots is two worlds actually. It's a difference if you start a fight with loads of HPS rolling and being good or having no healing and needing 6 GCDs just to put the hots in place.

    Makes sense, doesn't it?

    And a healer shouldn't be killable 1on1 in any way, like I mentioned earlier. It's still possible though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightwish View Post
    You got attacked by a Nightblade with someone elses DoTs on YOU and you lost. Not really 1v1 is it if someone else's dps is helping.
    Well, I wasn't sure what situations we are talking about. Why would anyone pre-hot all the time? Or how would the cleric know you'll be attacking him in a 1on1? Or don't you use stealth?

    So I considered situations in WFs, where it's quite likely to catch a cleric 1on1 who is dotted up like a christmas tree while trying to out-los or something.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elerina View Post
    Indeed. If he is prepared to your assault (in a rogue case this means: he knows you are going to attack) your enemy has the upper hand. I won't deny though, that healers (clerics) benefit the most. If a mage knows a rogue is going to attack, he can't pre-hot. But you won't catch him by surprise and he will expect your attack. A cleric with and without hots is two worlds actually. It's a difference if you start a fight with loads of HPS rolling and being good or having no healing and needing 6 GCDs just to put the hots in place.

    Makes sense, doesn't it?

    And a healer shouldn't be killable 1on1 in any way, like I mentioned earlier. It's still possible though.



    Well, I wasn't sure what situations we are talking about. Why would anyone pre-hot all the time? Or how would the cleric know you'll be attacking him in a 1on1? Or don't you use stealth?

    So I considered situations in WFs, where it's quite likely to catch a cleric 1on1 who is dotted up like a christmas tree while trying to out-los or something.
    So you're saying healers in Codex (as an example) don't go around from node to node with HoTs already rolling on them? Understood.

    Once again, if someone else's abilities are helping you dps down someone, it's not really 1v1 is it?

    No outside help = no outside help = 1v1.

    - Vybz
    Last edited by Nightwish; 08-03-2011 at 04:16 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fia View Post
    I just want to be able to survive for 10 seconds when having 2 dps on me, I don't think that's too much to ask for.
    Dedicated to the Rogues who stuck it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKoxTymkUTU
    Dedicated to the Rogue QQers and Haters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owzhYNcd4OM

  14. #59
    Shield of Telara Elerina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightwish View Post
    So you're saying healers in Codex (as an example) don't go around from node to node with HoTs already rolling on them? Understood.

    Once again, if someone else's abilities are helping you dps down someone, it's not really 1v1 is it?

    No outside help = no outside help = 1v1.

    - Vybz
    A good healer (at least imho) will never run around alone. Because his fkin purpose is it to heal others. So yeah, MY cleric will never do that. But a WF is a different situation, where you expect an attack anytime. You won't find easy prey there (not good players at least).

    But 1on1 in a WF is pointless anyway. As said, you won't catch me 1on1. Maybe if my whole team got slaughtered and I could run.

    Your example indicate, that the other team has that many healers, they don't need them with the biggest force. You're in the **** anyway then Or those clerics are enjoying doing the tanky ****, then you are actually playing into his hands by engaging him. Given your codex example you could still defend the point for quite some time, doesn't matter if you kill him or not. If he is defending and you need to take him out to get that point - bad luck, bring more guys.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elerina View Post
    A good healer (at least imho) will never run around alone. Because his fkin purpose is it to heal others. So yeah, MY cleric will never do that. But a WF is a different situation, where you expect an attack anytime. You won't find easy prey there (not good players at least).

    But 1on1 in a WF is pointless anyway. As said, you won't catch me 1on1. Maybe if my whole team got slaughtered and I could run.

    Your example indicate, that the other team has that many healers, they don't need them with the biggest force. You're in the **** anyway then Or those clerics are enjoying doing the tanky ****, then you are actually playing into his hands by engaging him. Given your codex example you could still defend the point for quite some time, doesn't matter if you kill him or not. If he is defending and you need to take him out to get that point - bad luck, bring more guys.
    You're speaking in ideal situations and stating what YOU would or wouldn't do. It doesn't always work out like that and people that KNOW they're OP run around solo.

    Now if you're saying Clerics are a force multiplier and it should take 2+ dps to kill them what happens when there are multiple Clerics cross healing? Eventually you won't have enough dps. Add in Valor + Chain armor to that equation and how are these guys dying again?

    Even before the upped the Valor on PvP armor Clerics were already God Mode. I've fought lots of them on my way to Rank 6 and since I've been Rank 6. Cleric healing has been broken since beta that's why it's getting nerfed almost every patch since beta.

    - Vybz
    Quote Originally Posted by Fia View Post
    I just want to be able to survive for 10 seconds when having 2 dps on me, I don't think that's too much to ask for.
    Dedicated to the Rogues who stuck it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKoxTymkUTU
    Dedicated to the Rogue QQers and Haters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owzhYNcd4OM

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