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Thread: Healing in PvP, a simple solution

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eughe View Post
    Ok. I have always been a b- student in math so bare with me.

    The argument is if valor increases the effectiveness in healing right? Which it does.
    So the plan is to remove valor and just slap on a bunch of hp to compensate for valor a la cabal.

    But there is some reasoning that does not make sense and/or doesn't seem logical.

    For one, valor doesn't add anything statistically. It simply decreases incoming damage.
    Everyone has access to the same amount of valor, so essentially everyone would have the same amount of hp added to compensate for the loss of valor. What would in turn happen is people walking around with 8k+ min hp + whatever natural defensive properties they currently happen.

    But what does that have to do with heals? My heals are the same regardless.
    As a healer in pvp, I dont care how much hp a target has (especially myself who does not have that much hp). What I care about is keeping that target alive long enough to complete whatever goal, immediate (kill the targets target) or long term (complete the objective).

    Having hp compensate for valor simply gives me more room to heal when assists happen, especially with current hps. With current average hp pools, even with valor, there is only so much any healer can heal with the current constraints (gcd) with assists and as long as combined damage > total health, no amount of healing will help keep that target alive, shielding and all. Since you can't heal more than the total amount of hp.

    With more hp, multiple healers can keep a person up longer because as long total hp greatly exceeds incoming damage, especially combined natural talents, there is no real way to take down anyone with current healing. In fact, it would be harder to kill people and easier to keep someone alive long enough to do w/e, especially those who stack end heavy items and classes that has a lot of natural mitigation abilities.

    So I'm not really getting how this would be of benefit.
    And how exactly would this hp be added? Straight hp or end? Because the second one would be stupid.
    The idea of adding health is the primary concept. It's the idea, but it leads to complexities.

    1. If we increase endurance, we break PvE.
    2. If we increase health just in PvP, when do we do it? Just in WFs? What about open world PvP?

    It turns out that valor is designed to increase our health through damage mitigation (if you have 5000 health with 20% mitigation, it actually requires 6250 damage to kill you, rather than 5000). And because it only mitigates damage from players, it effectively increases your health in PvP only, both in WFs and in open world PvP so it nicely alleviates both complexities.

    My OP was discussing increasing health as a solution to people dying too quickly. It then realized that valor does this, but noticed that valor also increases healing efficacy rather than just producing an increased effective health. And finally, it presented a solution to that unintended increase to bring valor in line with a pure HP increase.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaeranth View Post
    Hahah, Jmerlin quoting Wikipedia to illustrate "Argument from Ignorance".

    Delicious irony is delicious.
    Logic: it was not present during the creation of this post.

    Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony. Read up so you can properly identify irony next time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orichle View Post
    Actually it is faulty. It violates the principal of the scientific method. For it to be correct, you need to look at all the data and form a reasonable conclusion. Forming a conclusion and then finding data that supports said conclusion is incorrect.
    This does not follow, is not correct, and has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orichle View Post
    Actually it is faulty. It violates the principal of the scientific method. For it to be correct, you need to look at all the data and form a reasonable conclusion. Forming a conclusion and then finding data that supports said conclusion is incorrect.
    Is the big bang the "truth" of creation? When the scientific method is done with the arguing, the cosmologists will come out to play.

    In fact, empiricism in its purest form states pretty much what you've stated. Socratic empiricism does not shy away from "formulate hypothesis, state theorem, test".

    Which is correct? And to which "scientific method" do you demand adherence? I've listed two out of a multitude.

    As it happens, many things can lead one to conclusions other than those which one wishes. If one is intuitive and tuned to possibilities one can derive benefit where none was imagined. Henry Ford and Lorenz would like a word with the naysayers. Chaos, like s__t, happens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by astrocanis View Post
    The real question isn't "do they escalate", but rather "do they escalate to the same degree that mitigation does?" coupled with "does it matter"?

    If mitigation increases to 52%, does health then also go from 4500 to 6750? If some spell hits a dummy for 1000, with the valor gear, does it hit for 1500?

    His math isn't faulty at all. You simply want to turn his model on its ear and are willing to bring in extraneous arguments to support your destruction. Either positively influence the discusson or disappear.
    In the topic of discussing "Healing in PvP...", one must discuss those variables involved in PvP. You cannot ignore them. Doing so inherently means you are not discussing "Healing in PvP...", as was the case in this post.

    The math is incorrect. He states that a 2000 heal becomes a 2500 heal. It never does. The heal is always 2000. Does a person have to increase their base damage to inflict the same amount of damage against a target with mitigation as against one without? That was never in question. Is it more mana efficient to heal somebody with greater mitigation that somebody else? Again, that was never in question either.

    Valor is a "tanking" stat. It s a mitigation stat. It reduces incoming damage/increases effective health. It is literally a form of armor that mitigates all attacks.

    The OP even admitted that his "deduction" was incorrect, while claiming that the "math" was fine. That is bickering semantics. If the "math" does not support the "deduction", then the math is faulty. It does not work to support the conclusion...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eughe View Post
    Ok. I have always been a b- student in math so bare with me.
    Grades can be a poor reflection of a student. There are some that test poorly but know the information. There are those that have awesome short memories and cram the info for a test, but that information is soon forgotten. There are those that are simply bored too easily, and thus there work suffers. Without knowing the student themselves, I would not hold a B- against anybody. Way, way...waaaaay back in High School (this was around 22 years ago), I received a D in Physics during my Junior year. My Senior year though, I was taking AP Physics...the Physics teacher and my Calc teacher pushed their recommendations, so the school made an exception.

    The argument is if valor increases the effectiveness in healing right? Which it does.
    This is part of the discussion I find somewhat humorous. Because it is not about how Valor actually increases the effectiveness of healing, it is about an unproven conclusion of how it does. We all know that Valor is a mitigation stat. Thus, it reduces the amount of healing that needs to be done. This reduces the amount of mana used. This means healing can take place over a longer encounter. It opens up the options of which heal is used at which point. We know this because people have been healing others in MMOs since the '90s. We know this because people have been healing others in RPGs since the '70s. We know this because people had been healing others with tabletop gaming before that... so that Valor as a mitigation stat increases the effectiveness of healing in that light, was never in question. The argument has been about how the OP states that it increases the effectiveness of heals.

    So the plan is to remove valor and just slap on a bunch of hp to compensate for valor a la cabal.
    At this point, in having read through the OP's OP several times and his latter posts; I honestly do not know. The original post appears to say one thing. The OP states that it says something else. Sometimes the OP states it is what the original post says. Then at other times the OP states it does not.

    But there is some reasoning that does not make sense and/or doesn't seem logical.

    For one, valor doesn't add anything statistically. It simply decreases incoming damage.
    Everyone has access to the same amount of valor, so essentially everyone would have the same amount of hp added to compensate for the loss of valor. What would in turn happen is people walking around with 8k+ min hp + whatever natural defensive properties they currently happen.
    If it is a case that he is talking about removing the mitigation factor that Valor gave while turning the resulting Effective Health into Actual Health, then yes - people would receive the increase in health while losing the mitigation. Yet, at various points in his posting this appears to change.

    From a tanking perspective (which is hard to ignore while discussing a "tanking" stat), there are many discussions on how even though it may require the same amount of damage to kill the target - there are cases where mitigation is better than buffing and vice versa.

    But what does that have to do with heals? My heals are the same regardless.
    Not according to the OP...and thus the argument.

    As a healer in pvp, I dont care how much hp a target has (especially myself who does not have that much hp). What I care about is keeping that target alive long enough to complete whatever goal, immediate (kill the targets target) or long term (complete the objective).

    Having hp compensate for valor simply gives me more room to heal when assists happen, especially with current hps. With current average hp pools, even with valor, there is only so much any healer can heal with the current constraints (gcd) with assists and as long as combined damage > total health, no amount of healing will help keep that target alive, shielding and all. Since you can't heal more than the total amount of hp.

    With more hp, multiple healers can keep a person up longer because as long total hp greatly exceeds incoming damage, especially combined natural talents, there is no real way to take down anyone with current healing. In fact, it would be harder to kill people and easier to keep someone alive long enough to do w/e, especially those who stack end heavy items and classes that has a lot of natural mitigation abilities.
    Which when looking at all the variables involved in PvP, people will see how the OP's OP was flawed.

    So I'm not really getting how this would be of benefit.
    And how exactly would this hp be added? Straight hp or end? Because the second one would be stupid.
    In the end, is the OP actually asking for Actual Health though? Or is he keeping Mitigation and Effective Health? To be honest, that part does not matter and pales considerable in comparison to what he is asking for in regard to heals.

    If you have 20% damage mitigation (or 25% increase in health), then incoming heals should be reduced by 25%.

    Say our target for healing has 5000 health. He has 0 Valor. A healer casts a 1000 pt heal on them. It will heal for 20% of their health. If the OP is keeping mitigation and the target has 20%, that heal will now heal for 15% of their health. If the OP is going with Actual Health instead of mitigation with that same percentage (the target has 6250 health), that heal will now heal for 12% of their health.

    He is not calling it a nerf to healing. He is calling it an attempt to normalize healing in PvP based on Valor. He is doing so to attempt to avoid any possible nerfs to healing for PvP that might affect PvE.

    ...and yes, while doing so - he is ignoring all the other variables involved in PvP: mainly the increased damage that caused Valor to be implemented in the first place.

    While I can commend wanting to avoid changes in PvP affecting PvE, I think the simplest thing to ask would be this: How would you feel about such changes being made to PvE mitigation? That as the tank increased their mitigation, the amount of heals they received were reduced as well. But wait, the tank needs the increased mitigation and the heals not reduced to be able to tank the damage as the progression continues...

    ...duh, welcome to Valor and PvP.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    In the topic of discussing "Healing in PvP...", one must discuss those variables involved in PvP. You cannot ignore them. Doing so inherently means you are not discussing "Healing in PvP...", as was the case in this post.
    You are choosing your own topic instead of picking up the topic in the OP. You are arguing that since I don't account for issues in your topic that my discussion is invalid. Please see the above post where I pointed out the numerous logical fallacies you commit when doing such a thing to the other person who did this.

    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    The math is incorrect. He states that a 2000 heal becomes a 2500 heal. It never does. The heal is always 2000. Does a person have to increase their base damage to inflict the same amount of damage against a target with mitigation as against one without? That was never in question. Is it more mana efficient to heal somebody with greater mitigation that somebody else? Again, that was never in question either.
    Incorrect. The math is fine, your understanding is limited by your primitive brain. Don't blame me or claim that I'm wrong because of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    Valor is a "tanking" stat. It s a mitigation stat. It reduces incoming damage/increases effective health. It is literally a form of armor that mitigates all attacks.
    And it also increases the efficacy of healing in PvP only.

    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    The OP even admitted that his "deduction" was incorrect, while claiming that the "math" was fine. That is bickering semantics. If the "math" does not support the "deduction", then the math is faulty. It does not work to support the conclusion...
    I never admitted any such thing. I merely informed you that even if a premise or the conclusion are incorrect, that the math is not necessarily invalid. To say that, you must actually prove it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    Grades can be a poor reflection of a student. There are some that test poorly but know the information. There are those that have awesome short memories and cram the info for a test, but that information is soon forgotten. There are those that are simply bored too easily, and thus there work suffers. Without knowing the student themselves, I would not hold a B- against anybody. Way, way...waaaaay back in High School (this was around 22 years ago), I received a D in Physics during my Junior year. My Senior year though, I was taking AP Physics...the Physics teacher and my Calc teacher pushed their recommendations, so the school made an exception.
    Off topic, irrelevant. Poster meant to establish a purpose for his misunderstanding, he did not mean to introduce a new topic of discussion. We don't care how stupid you were in highschool but how you believed you were smart.

    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    This is part of the discussion I find somewhat humorous. Because it is not about how Valor actually increases the effectiveness of healing, it is about an unproven conclusion of how it does.
    It does. I proved this mathematically. You have said it doesn't, but have agreed with me in every example, and have never proven otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    We all know that Valor is a mitigation stat. Thus, it reduces the amount of healing that needs to be done.
    This is because it increases the efficacy of healing. You literally just agreed with me.

    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    This reduces the amount of mana used.
    Necessarily, yes, but this is meaningless.

    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    This means healing can take place over a longer encounter.
    Once again, meaningless, I never addressed duration and/or longevity of encounters, this is once again off-topic. Stop attempting a straw man.

    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    It opens up the options of which heal is used at which point.
    Off topic. Meaningless.

    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    We know this because people have been healing others in MMOs since the '90s. We know this because people have been healing others in RPGs since the '70s. We know this because people had been healing others with tabletop gaming before that... so that Valor as a mitigation stat increases the effectiveness of healing in that light, was never in question.
    Appeal to tradition. Generalization. Off topic. Meaningless.

    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    The argument has been about how the OP states that it increases the effectiveness of heals.
    It does, and this has been demonstrated amply.

    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    At this point, in having read through the OP's OP several times and his latter posts; I honestly do not know. The original post appears to say one thing. The OP states that it says something else. Sometimes the OP states it is what the original post says. Then at other times the OP states it does not.
    This is your primitive below average mind being incapable of comprehending basic math. I have never been inconsistent in this thread. You, however, have.

    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    If it is a case that he is talking about removing the mitigation factor that Valor gave while turning the resulting Effective Health into Actual Health, then yes - people would receive the increase in health while losing the mitigation. Yet, at various points in his posting this appears to change.
    No. You have failed to comprehend the present discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    From a tanking perspective (which is hard to ignore while discussing a "tanking" stat), there are many discussions on how even though it may require the same amount of damage to kill the target - there are cases where mitigation is better than buffing and vice versa.
    Off topic, meaningless.

    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    Not according to the OP...and thus the argument.
    I never mentioned anything about that. It is off topic and completely unrelated to my discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    Which when looking at all the variables involved in PvP, people will see how the OP's OP was flawed.
    Incorrect. You are adding variables which are independent and assuming since I do not account for variables which need not be accounted for that my position is flawed. Keep the logical fallacies coming.

    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    In the end, is the OP actually asking for Actual Health though? Or is he keeping Mitigation and Effective Health? To be honest, that part does not matter and pales considerable in comparison to what he is asking for in regard to heals.
    You clearly have not understood the discussion at hand. The discussion is not in favor of one over another, it's that valor introduces effective health as initially described, alleviates the complexities as they pertain to PvE, but it also inadvertently increases the efficacy of heals in PvP.

    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    If you have 20% damage mitigation (or 25% increase in health), then incoming heals should be reduced by 25%.
    By 20%. You don't even understand that.

    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    Say our target for healing has 5000 health. He has 0 Valor. A healer casts a 1000 pt heal on them. It will heal for 20% of their health. If the OP is keeping mitigation and the target has 20%, that heal will now heal for 15% of their health. If the OP is going with Actual Health instead of mitigation with that same percentage (the target has 6250 health), that heal will now heal for 12% of their health.
    Incorrect. You completely misunderstand. With the change, considering actual health with mitigation, the heal will heal the target for 80% of the original 1000, that's 800. When you consider this in effective health, the healer will heal the target for exactly 1000 effective health because valor generates an effective 25% increase in healing in this case (1/.8). The percentage of their health is completely irrelevant. Once again, you introduce something completely irrelevant in attempt to make a claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    He is not calling it a nerf to healing. He is calling it an attempt to normalize healing in PvP based on Valor. He is doing so to attempt to avoid any possible nerfs to healing for PvP that might affect PvE.
    That is actually correct. I don't know how you got something right intentionally, but a broken clock is right twice a day, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    ...and yes, while doing so - he is ignoring all the other variables involved in PvP: mainly the increased damage that caused Valor to be implemented in the first place.
    Incorrect. They are irrelevant while discussing valor. Once again, adding variables and claiming not accounting for everything invalidates the discussion. Fallacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    While I can commend wanting to avoid changes in PvP affecting PvE, I think the simplest thing to ask would be this: How would you feel about such changes being made to PvE mitigation? That as the tank increased their mitigation, the amount of heals they received were reduced as well. But wait, the tank needs the increased mitigation and the heals not reduced to be able to tank the damage as the progression continues...
    Completely irrelevant. Comparing a discussion about valor in PvP to PvE and saying "PvP and PvE are different, thus since this idea might be bad in PvE, it must be bad in PvP" is completely meaningless, and says nothing about the argument presented here.

    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    ...duh, welcome to Valor and PvP.
    Make sense, please.

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