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Thread: Revisiting PvP mitigation, and redesigning PvP souls to make them relevant.

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    Prophet of Telara Corian's Avatar
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    Default Revisiting PvP mitigation, and redesigning PvP souls to make them relevant.

    Couple patches back Trion made the decision that mitigation should be gained primarily through gear. This may have not been such a hot idea, so let's see what we can do about it.

    What I'm about to do is make an argument that PvP souls for all four callings need to be reworked in order to create a more competitive PvP environment for all players, while ensuring that fully PvP geared players (of any rank) still have an advantage.

    First, philosophy. Here's a list of goals I'm trying to accomplish by proposing these changes.

    1. All players have access to up to 20% PvP damage mitigation via their PvP soul.

    This isn't the passive addition that Trion proposed prior to 1.3. Players MUST invest into the PvP soul in order to get this, but it will be available to them at prestige rank 1.

    2. Dedicated PvPers should be running the maximum number of points in their PvP souls.

    This one's a no brainer to me. The PvP soul should be providing a bigger edge in PvP than additional points spent in regular souls. While this concept appears to decrease build flexibility, the idea is that the PvP soul is more important than the other souls. In theory this should mean less of a reliance on "fotm" builds, with a greater emphasis personal playstyle. Which leads to...

    3. The PvP soul design needs to be more focused, with branches of the tree each representing a different style of play relevant to the calling.

    I'll get specific here. Right now each PvP soul has four branches of skills. This is a good idea, but the way the skills are laid out are often bafflingly unrelated to the other skills in the same branch. A complete redesign that creates focused skillsets for each branch based on a playstyle will make the tree more appealing for heavy points investment. Applying this directly to the PvP souls, the skills on one side are uniformly offensive in nature, while the skills on the other are uniformly defensive. However, the two offensive branches may differ in that one focuses on burst damage capability, while the other focuses on utility debuffs.

    4. Fully investing into the PvP soul should not prevent the player from fully investing into his primary soul.

    This one is straightforward. PvP souls should max out at 15 points, to allow the players to spend 51 points into their primary soul. The reduced points total for the PvP soul also makes semi-hybrid builds possible, while 30+/30+ hybrids need to make some important decisions. The added benefit here is that balancing should become much easier.

    Future proofing this may or may not be a problem, but the general idea here is that a player should always have enough points to place the maximum amount into one regular tree and also the PvP tree.

    5. All PvP gear should provide the same amount of valor/mitigation.

    Hear me out on this one. The idea here is not to screw those who are fully PvP geared (I'm one of them and have been r6 since April), but instead to ensure that anyone using all PvP gear (regardless of rank) has an advantage over anyone using all PvE gear (regardless of tier). The difference between the pure stats of r2 and r6 gear will still be massive, but mitigation being the same will keep everyone honest about using both PvP-based gear and PvP-based builds regardless of the quality of gear available to them.

    6. Dedicated PvPers should have up to ~50% PvP damage mitigation.

    Since players have up to 20% for using the PvP soul, that means a full set of PvP gear should provide another 20%, with things like runes and planar foci providing up to 50% (hard valor cap). Obviously these numbers would have to be put through a lot of testing, but general idea.

    Mechanically this one presents the biggest problem, though. Rift does funny things with mitigation, and to ensure that things like armor and defensive skills are still useful, other forms of mitigation need to be multiplicative with valor, instead of additive. In addition, valor should not be counted as part of the 75% mitigation cap. The cap should be reserved for said multiplicative modifiers, which means that mitigation should be capped at 75% of the remaining damage, and not 75% of the total damage.

    I'll give an example. The warlock skill Neddra's Essence gives 80% damage reduction. If hit for 200 damage and assuming all mitigation is additive, a player with 50% PvP mitigation will get very little use out of this skill, with Neddra's Essence only mitigating 50 damage out of 200. Far cry from 80%. However, if the mitigation cap ignores valor, the player would only take 25 damage out of 200, a much better result when 200 damage becomes 20000.

    This is the appropriate time to make this amount of mitigation possible again, because of the proposed 1.4 healing changes.

    At this point you've read enough, so here's an MS Paint rendition of my idea that should make your eyes bleed. Just be thankful I didn't go through with the bright yellow background.

    Summing up, all four PvP souls are designed around this template. A valor skill available at rank 1 provides an immediate 10% bonus for dropping 5 points into it, while giving another 10% mitigation by investing further into the tree. This is done to reinforce the idea that people should be spending as many points as possible in this tree without making the initial skill too strong for its points investment, or so weak that it's not worth going into the PvP tree at all.

    At tiers 2 and 3 are passive skills similar in design to the current tiers 1-2. These will be big things that benefit everyone, such as 5% damage per point, 5% less chance of taking a crit, etc. Although the two examples I used are conversions of current tier 1 skills in archmage, the other trees will have to be given different skills as they don't have as clearcut an offensive and defensive side.

    Tier 4 gives an active skill that will be useful for whichever style of play suits the player. For example--and I keep going to the mage PvP tree because it's the closest one to having a good design--Nenvin's Lament makes the next damaging spell crit. Good thing to have for a burst-focused player.

    Tier 5 is tricky, because currently players avoid the 5 point investment into these skills like the plague. To encourage people to keep spending points, these now achieve the same result in 2 points. Not that all, or even most, of the tier 5 skills acceptable under the new design, but the idea that they're specialized passives is a good one. These passives should greatly enhance, or even define, the build's play, unlike the lower level passives that are simply useful things.

    Tier 6 should be big, game changing cooldowns similar in scope to the 51 point skills. Some of the current t6 skills do fit that bill, but many of them would be better suited to a t4 spot, and many of them also need cooldowns reduced from 5 minutes to 3 in order to be relevant.

    Remember, skills of the same branch from tier 4-6 should be providing either synergy or utility to player builds, and each branch needs a focused role. As shown in the picture, the simplest way to do it is to set aside a branch in each calling for burst damage, debuffs, support, and survivability. Obviously this would be tweaked a bit depending on calling (for rogues, there might be an escape branch rather than a survival branch), but as souls in each calling are varied enough to benefit from at least one of mentioned branch roles, they're probably good starting points across all four callings.

    Lastly, root skills. Obviously the distribution of these will have to be changed, but that's simple enough to do. The one thing I will say is that these skills should probably be looked at to ensure that they're useful for all players in a calling. The rogue root skills in particular are amazing, and a good example of what all callings should have available to them.

    Hopefully my ideas promote discussion that'll lead us to a better PvP environment. I think we all agree that we're not quite there yet.

    (also hire me!)
    This is why we can't have nice things.

  2. #2
    Champion Cime's Avatar
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    Default argh

    Wish we could have merged our posts. We're thinking along the same line thankfully. Nice to see someone else wanting the pvp souls get a serious looking at.

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    Champion Deathwhisperzz's Avatar
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    Well, forcing players to put 15 points in their pvp soul (if the T6 cooldowns are as game-changing as you say) will drastically reduce the amount of soul combinations available, and that's not good. The soul system is the selling point of Rift. Instead, the PvP soul should be a 4th tree with it's own special soul points. We must keep the soul system's flexibility as it is.

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    Prophet of Telara aylictal's Avatar
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    what if our pvp tree just sucks?


    you didn't address this :<

    im rank6 and i dont even use my soul, because frankly, its awful and the pve trees are better.
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    Prophet of Telara Corian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathwhisperzz View Post
    Well, forcing players to put 15 points in their pvp soul (if the T6 cooldowns are as game-changing as you say) will drastically reduce the amount of soul combinations available, and that's not good. The soul system is the selling point of Rift. Instead, the PvP soul should be a 4th tree with it's own special soul points. We must keep the soul system's flexibility as it is.
    Two things.

    First, 95% of warrriors being parachamps isn't what I'd call flexibility. I think the 15 point investment into PvP souls (if the skills are good enough) will actually result in a wider variety of builds based on what players feel they need for PvP, but worst case scenario is the current scenario of nearly everyone using one build.

    Second, separating the PvP soul and giving it its own special points is a bad idea because then every build is a "PvP" build. The idea behind the PvP soul is to encourage specialized PvP builds. To make people make choices about what to bring into a PvP situation. I don't want people with raid specs in my warfronts. They're useless for utility, and changing the PvP soul in such a way that they have access to it without being in a specialized PvP build is not only boring, but makes irrelevant some important decisions about where to spend your points. Flexibility is not a bad thing, but being able to choose everything in one role is bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by aylictal View Post
    what if our pvp tree just sucks?


    you didn't address this :<

    im rank6 and i dont even use my soul, because frankly, its awful and the pve trees are better.
    No I agree. The mage soul is pretty good as long as you don't go past tier 4, and the rogue PvP soul seems kinda decent, but the cleric one is bad and the warrior one is just HORRIBLE. It's not only the structure that needs to be reworked. The skills themselves need to be good enough to justify the points investment. As these are PvP trees, points spent here should be superior in PvP to points spent elsewhere.
    Last edited by Corian; 07-14-2011 at 09:19 AM.
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    Plane Touched Holy Terror's Avatar
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    Most ppl slot a pvp soul just for Break Free which many consider indispensable. Currently, Ive 44 pnts in Blademaster. Among other things, this allows me to use Unentangle which is better than Break free so I don't even use the PvP soul.
    A computer once beat me at chess but it sure couldn't beat me at kick boxing.

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    Plane Walker Knightcrawler's Avatar
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    Most of this sounds really great, I always try to make good use of the pvp tree in my pvp builds and as a rogue sometimes its justified. My bard has amazing mitigation.

    PvP souls need a good long look from the Trion team.

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    Ascendant Eughe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathwhisperzz View Post
    Well, forcing players to put 15 points in their pvp soul (if the T6 cooldowns are as game-changing as you say) will drastically reduce the amount of soul combinations available, and that's not good. The soul system is the selling point of Rift. Instead, the PvP soul should be a 4th tree with it's own special soul points. We must keep the soul system's flexibility as it is.
    So what? The pvp soul is suppose to:

    1) Naturally tone down the damage one is able to out put, so pve heroes cant pve it up in pvp.
    2) Naturally tone down healing...which it already does, formally for increase defensive capabilites, now simply for clutch skills.

    Had the made the pvp soul the only way to increase pvp defense, most pvp *****ing would not be a problem.

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    Ascendant Rottweiler-STi's Avatar
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    all they need to do is make the pvp souls a separate point based tree like DAoC and adjust or re-engineer the trees accordingly.

    Add things like DAoC had: http://daoc.arcannis.com/

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    Banned Cyborg's Avatar
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    There is a big problem with casters that mitigate a ton of damage ,dont speak about heals ( the king of pvp in Rift). Tanks mitigate and block insane amount of damage again ..in pvp is not fare and balanced.

    Now i read some 1.4 notes and healings seem to be drop to normal maybe ..MAYBE

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    Rift Disciple
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    @corian
    All great ideas! hopefully trion takes the time to read ur well thought out post.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cyborg View Post
    There is a big problem with casters that mitigate a ton of damage ,dont speak about heals ( the king of pvp in Rift). Tanks mitigate and block insane amount of damage again ..in pvp is not fare and balanced.

    Now i read some 1.4 notes and healings seem to be drop to normal maybe ..MAYBE
    caster mitigation are all countered by cleanse effects. and tanks can spec to mitigate a ton of but dont do any damage. not to mention cc and healing debuffs. w1111w11111w1111 "why isnt he dieing" mentality is dumbing down the game. you my friend... are BAD

    Quote Originally Posted by Rottweiler-STi View Post
    WARRIOR
    We’re generally happy with the current state of Warriors and are continuing to monitor a number of smaller issues involving them.
    finally happy about warriors are u? imo champ para are doing to much burst and will get nerfed. u"ll see. too many ppl are QQ'n
    Last edited by Fizbini; 07-14-2011 at 10:12 AM.

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    Prophet of Telara Corian's Avatar
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    I should've titled this thread "Warriors too strong, Trion hates mages. Nerf permastealth and buff healing."

    It'd have 30 pages and a half million views.

    (no i don't actually believe any of that)
    Last edited by Corian; 07-15-2011 at 10:14 AM.
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    Rift Disciple
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    bump for a well written post that deserves more attention

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    Shield of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rottweiler-STi View Post
    all they need to do is make the pvp souls a separate point based tree like DAoC and adjust or re-engineer the trees accordingly.

    Add things like DAoC had: http://daoc.arcannis.com/
    Yes, we have a winner!
    Its so simple and elegant that I canīt even comprehend why daoc was the only mmo that has done this (to my knowledge), no warhammers ranks where a joke and therefore donīt count.

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    Ascendant Rottweiler-STi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balduran View Post
    warhammer was a joke
    fixed .

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