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Thread: The Arena.... add it

  1. #76
    Rift Chaser Fiala's Avatar
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    Default Arenas were bad for WOW..and even Blizzard unofficially admitted as much

    WOW's Arenas was a balancing nightmare for Blizzard..that's why they de-emphasized it. It didn't help that the bottom of the arenas player base literally fell out. (60%ish drop or so in participation) which contributed to the tremendous unpopularity of arenas.

    And besides arena players were a *significant* minority of the WOW player base just as much as RIft premade players are.

  2. #77
    Ascendant Trisian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rsaetan View Post
    Copy and paste WoW for the most part. In an Arena you get a friend(s) whom you pick to fight. None of the, at times, frustrationg PuG of Warfronts. Dont lecture of how I should jsut get 20 people to group up and warfont with, give me a break, dont bother to post if that is your case.
    How about I lecture you on how bad an idea this is? Didn't work for WoW and drove away more customers for them than it kept, plus has eaten millions in dev costs over the years trying to prop it up.

  3. #78
    Soulwalker
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    Because they can never be balanced.
    Assumption, but pretty much guaranteed to be true. What I won't accept however, is assuming that they can never be CLOSE to perfectly balanced either.

    Because in Rift the nerfing would start immediately and still be going on 10 years later (if Rift still is).
    Sure, but Rift is undergoing (and recognizes that it NEEDS to continue undergoing) various balance fixes for all the trees. MMOs are not a conventional product in that testing needs to be fully complete before you release something, MMOs are generally works in progress that people play in terms of balance.

    Because (for the reasons above) an Arena would absorb almost ALL Rifts PvP Dev time for years (leaving none for anything else).
    Assumption, but fair enough point if you could somehow prove this.

    Because they are all about the right group build, not about individual skill or anything else first and for most.
    Ranges from completely false to true depending on the balance, again, it depends on how much faith one has in the devs. Although I will say that every season of arena (maybe not s5, read: DKs lawl) has had a few (not many, but more than 1) top tier comps, and then when it's a mirror match, it IS a test of skill. Additionally, even with imbalances, pure skill could always beat out comps. Hell, if it was solely based on comps, where's everyone's free glad? I guess what I'm trying to say is making something easier to play (ie: it's easier for certain comps to win) is independent of TRUE balance of classes (ex: look at the various availability of macros for rotations in PVE, they are not directly related to effectiveness of PVE roles).

    Because they are easy to cheat and grind to get inflated ranks.
    Unless the ranking system is extra broken, you won't be able to cheat your way to glad.

    Because they are boring when you win constantly enough, and frustrating when you cannot win simply because of your group build.
    If you're going to work under the premise of boring when you win constantly, then that applies to ALL PvP innovations Rift could possibly come up with, ie: that's a moot argument if you're going to work with that premise. As for group build, I already addressed that earlier.

    How about I lecture you on how bad an idea this is? Didn't work for WoW and drove away more customers for them than it kept, plus has eaten millions in dev costs over the years trying to prop it up.
    Assumption on how much it cost devs. Additionally, people who quit WoW because they got skill-capped in arena were going to leave anyways. If you fail at arenas, then you quit because you fail, it means that you did not have other reasons to play the game. This is no different than a bad raider quitting because he got tired of wiping. TLR: Quitters are going to exist no matter what, when the game gets stale or too difficult for them, they quit. The rate is probably not higher with people who do arena.

    But enough with the critiques, arena would be good for Rift because it places an emphasis on individual skill, which is important because the main satisfaction of arena is the efficacy a player has on the match. And of course, rankings are always good. In BGs (even if it's a premade), it's no fun sometimes when you realize that as an individual you don't have as much of an effect. If you're standing on a resource node and you get zerged, that's not fun because you just helplessly die. You can argue that the team that just goes around and zergs is going to lose, fine, but it is no fun helplessly simply because the rest of your team happened to be somewhere else (as no one enjoys defending nodes either). I would not enjoy BGs if I won every single of them but in every single one of them I had to stand alone at a node because my team is too impatient to defend (everyone just wants kills) and get killed about 10 times. Winning/losing isn't everything, the game itself needs to be fun.

    Don't get me wrong, I enjoy WFs too, but that doesn't mean I don't want to arena. It's good to have choices, it's good to switch it up. I play this game because I got bored of WoW, and PvP will stale in Rift if it's only WF after WF. Look at WoW, the two new BGs released in Cataclysm are just repeat mechanics of WSG and AB except on new maps. BGs have a limit to what you can do in them. Arena is just another "map" to play PvP on.

    I also support RvR gameplay, but I would imagine that INEVITABLY ends up like WFs. As for world pvp, I would support maybe some sort of guild vs. guild quest in certain designated zones, and whoever collects X quest items wins or something.

    - I'm all for variety in PvP, and arena ONE of MANY VIABLE choices.

    - Arena was fun in WoW, it can be fun here WITHOUT being perfectly balanced. It would require some preliminary balance work I know, I'm not asking Trion release it with 1.4 tomorrow.

    There's simply little reason to hate on an optional feature. If you like WFs, play them exclusively. If you want RvR or world PvP, push for those. But more options tend to draw in more players, if more players come, more devs can be hired. Trion grows, game grows, and the quitters who ragequit pvp because they're bad ragequit (as in, sure wow arenas may have caused some ragequitting, but so has every feature when a bad player is so bad that they actually let it get to them and ragequit). I'm okay with that.

  4. #79
    General of Telara Pippington's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=moogle320;2672131]Assumption, but pretty much guaranteed to be true. What I won't accept however, is assuming that they can never be CLOSE to perfectly balanced either.

    Of course, potentially they can be close to balanced (although that is really what I mean anyway, as there is no such thing as perfect balance, never has been, never will be).

    However given WoWs issues and that WoW had a much less complex system to balance, it isn't much of an assumption to say that it'll likely never be balanced, at least not within the likely lifetime of an MMO.


    Sure, but Rift is undergoing (and recognizes that it NEEDS to continue undergoing) various balance fixes for all the trees. MMOs are not a conventional product in that testing needs to be fully complete before you release something, MMOs are generally works in progress that people play in terms of balance.
    There will always be nerfing, but a system like the Arena is like a magnifying glass, causing issues that might be ignored or not cause problems in PvE or more general PvP to have to be dealt with within the Arena system.

    Again WoW showed this result clearly.


    Assumption, but fair enough point if you could somehow prove this.
    Well the counter assumptions are that either Trion will just ignore and leave the balance issues (nightmare for players and themselves) or that they will somehow achieve near balance very quickly (a possibility but highly unlikely when you look at any PvP in any other MMO).


    Ranges from completely false to true depending on the balance, again, it depends on how much faith one has in the devs. Although I will say that every season of arena (maybe not s5, read: DKs lawl) has had a few (not many, but more than 1) top tier comps, and then when it's a mirror match, it IS a test of skill. Additionally, even with imbalances, pure skill could always beat out comps. Hell, if it was solely based on comps, where's everyone's free glad? I guess what I'm trying to say is making something easier to play (ie: it's easier for certain comps to win) is independent of TRUE balance of classes (ex: look at the various availability of macros for rotations in PVE, they are not directly related to effectiveness of PVE roles).
    Sorry, but it is completely true.

    The most obvious example is to run without any healing, yes it's is stupid, but it clearly demonstrates the problem.

    The problem still exists with other group builds, only you won't hit the glass ceiling quite as quickly as in this example.



    Unless the ranking system is extra broken, you won't be able to cheat your way to glad.
    You could always exploit WoWs system one way or another.


    If you're going to work under the premise of boring when you win constantly, then that applies to ALL PvP innovations Rift could possibly come up with, ie: that's a moot argument if you're going to work with that premise. As for group build, I already addressed that earlier.
    Boredom is boredom, I agree, but in other types of PvP there are always ways to win by out thinking or taking a different path to victory. In WoW Arena there really wasn't, it was group build, gear then eventually skill at small group skirmishing. Skill actually being completely irrelevant if the 1st two were bad enough (or not cookie cutter enough).



    Assumption on how much it cost devs.
    Blizzard have stated how it drained resources and caused problems, what makes you think it would be different in Rift with a much more complex set of issues to balance?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartolomeus D View Post
    Queueing solo should not place you in a warfront against opponents that queued as a group.

    It's that simple.

  5. #80
    Soulwalker
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    WoW's arenas were too much timing of abilities and timing cc's..there was no chaos or surprise element...then if you failed at the first attempt..u just survived until your cooldowns were up and tried again...they felt more like a job then actually PvPing...basically the arena felt like dancing with a partner...id rather them focus on making world PvP fun..where a group of 5 good players can win despite being out numbered and the fights are filled surprises, and one is forced to fight without cooldowns always up... having arenas will just make this game more like WoW...it has to do something different and that should be good open world pvp....

  6. #81
    Plane Touched Moirweyn's Avatar
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    I'm fine with arenas and long as any gear you get from the arena, is only good in the arena and no where else at all. Too easy to farm that stuff with friends.
    I hate people, and yes, that almost surely means you.

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