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Thread: Why clerics must always be very powerful in PvP

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    Plane Touched Jural's Avatar
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    Default Why clerics must always be very powerful in PvP

    Cleric healing counters the massive DPS that people put out when they have developed a highly geared and skilled build.

    If you want people to constantly level up and get stronger and stronger, you need a "money sink", so to speak, to "absorb" all that massive firepower. Otherwise, everyone they hit would be one-shot, and the battles would be over in seconds. Matches would consist of most players running back from the starting point.

    Healers negate damage. People want to deliver ever higher amounts of damage as they level.

    So, the healers need to be there to keep the whole leveling system running.

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    Plane Touched
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    Why just clerics?

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    Prophet of Telara NatashaK's Avatar
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    In a larger, open world or with tanks who can actually defend in PvP, healers wouldnt need to be as strong.

    Give all tanks guard (rather than hiding it in a tree no one specs)
    Make taunts work in PvP

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    Everything in this thread only matters under the assumption that people shouldn't die in pvp.

    We seem to do just fine without heals in half the online shooters out there, so no idea why MMO players are so timid that the very act of dying makes them want to /wrist.

    I'll say this. In the rare case where I'm puging it and neither side has heals, and neither side has anyone willing to switch to heals as the game draws on....lol. Those Black Gardens where the fang is dropped about 30 times in one game are the hands down best. Or the Codexes where the Codex must switch hands about 20 times during the game, or the Whitefall Steepes where no one can afford to turtle because no one has heals at all.

    It's too bad those games are so rare.

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    Ascendant Visions's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revial View Post
    Everything in this thread only matters under the assumption that people shouldn't die in pvp.

    We seem to do just fine without heals in half the online shooters out there, so no idea why MMO players are so timid that the very act of dying makes them want to /wrist.

    I'll say this. In the rare case where I'm puging it and neither side has heals, and neither side has anyone willing to switch to heals as the game draws on....lol. Those Black Gardens where the fang is dropped about 30 times in one game are the hands down best. Or the Codexes where the Codex must switch hands about 20 times during the game, or the Whitefall Steepes where no one can afford to turtle because no one has heals at all.

    It's too bad those games are so rare.
    Heals are the very backbone of MMOs, so why try to change that, when you've got your FPS to play? FPS games is like checkers, MMOs is like chess. You need far more team work, and strategy to succeed in MMOs, but then we get a massive amount of FPS QQ League players, and it ruins the game. Clerics are strong, but not unkillable, players being healed are stronger, but no unkillable. If you want easy mode head shots, this isn't the genre of gaming for you.

    Waaahhhh, I had to work for that kills, nerf Clerics.
    Last edited by Visions; 06-19-2011 at 05:01 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Visions View Post
    Heals are the very backbone of MMOs, so why try to change that, when you've got your FPS to play? FPS games is like checkers, MMOs is like chess. You need far more team work, and strategy to succeed in MMOs, but then we get a massive amount of FPS QQ League players, and it ruins the game. Clerics are strong, but not unkillable, players being healed are stronger, but no unkillable. If you want easy mode head shots, this isn't the genre of gaming for you.

    Waaahhhh, I had to work for that kills, nerf Clerics.
    The very best players in team based FPS I've ever played with were the very best players I've played with in MMOs over the last 15 years. The reverse, I can't say is true, so I really don't accept your belief that MMOs are "like chess" and fps are like "checkers" analogy. ;)

    And certainly, most of the top pvpers I've ever had the pleasure of playing with were very good at team based fps as well. *shrug*

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    Ascendant Visions's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revial View Post
    The very best players in team based FPS I've ever played with were the very best players I've played with in MMOs over the last 15 years. The reverse, I can't say is true, so I really don't accept your belief that MMOs are "like chess" and fps are like "checkers" analogy. ;)

    And certainly, most of the top pvpers I've ever had the pleasure of playing with were very good at team based fps as well. *shrug*
    In what games, WoW? lol....

    My son makes money in FPS games becuase he is that good at them, but he doesn't hold a candle to me, in any MMO, because they are different. The simple fact you mention healing like you do, proves my point. You don't want to work for your kill, you want it as freely as you get it in a FPS, where it is nothing more than a zerg fest of players who die, run back, die, run back, die, rinse repeat.

    But then again, I'm an old time MMO gamer, where we could loot your gear, upon killing you, so your FPS respawn, and zerg style of play, wouldn't work. And I want the old Rallos Zek EQ1 gameplay back, and want MMOs to get way from the current model.


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    Rift Chaser Kayoh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Visions View Post
    Heals are the very backbone of MMOs, so why try to change that, when you've got your FPS to play? FPS games is like checkers, MMOs is like chess. You need far more team work, and strategy to succeed in MMOs, but then we get a massive amount of FPS QQ League players, and it ruins the game. Clerics are strong, but not unkillable, players being healed are stronger, but no unkillable. If you want easy mode head shots, this isn't the genre of gaming for you.

    Waaahhhh, I had to work for that kills, nerf Clerics.
    Glorious!

    Well put man, well put. FPS =/= MMO

    FPS are balanced around skill and choice. You pick your gun, for your gameplay. If your gun doesn't suit your needs, tough **** that was your decision. If you out shoot the other player even though your gun wasn't ideal, congrats! You win!

    MMOs do not work in a similar fashion. You pick your playstyle, it differs from other players. That's where the similarity ends. Certain builds will beat other builds, regardless of how well the underdog plays. GET OVER IT. That is the very nature of an MMO.

    Competative, yes. Balanced, **** off. That's not how things work here. Get over it, go wreck someone else and enjoy it. Pure balance is meant for playing fields where all players are equal and only choices and skill matter. MMOs concentrate on a combination, but you can't measure your worth as a player by a loss, only by your performance during the game that you were outmatched in.
    Last edited by Kayoh; 06-19-2011 at 05:17 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Visions View Post
    In what games, WoW? lol....

    My son makes money in FPS games becuase he is that good at them, but he doesn't hold a candle to me, in any MMO, because they are different. The simple fact you mention healing like you do, proves my point. You don't want to work for your kill, you want it as freely as you get it in a FPS, where it is nothing more than a zerg fest of players who die, run back, die, run back, die, rinse repeat.

    But then again, I'm an old time MMO gamer, where we could loot your gear, upon killing you, so your FPS respawn, and zerg style of play, wouldn't work. And I want the old Rallos Zek EQ1 gameplay back, and want MMOs to get way from the current model.
    We'll just have to agree to disagree and pretend we did it over a 15 page pissing contest. ;)

    And, hey, I was pking before someone decided to call it pvp, with full looting of corpses even back when we were playing MUDs and games like Everquest weren't even a twinkled in anyone's eyes, so it's not like I'm some "noob" to the genre. ;)

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    Ascendant Visions's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kayoh View Post
    Glorious!

    Well put man, well put. FPS =/= MMO

    FPS are balanced around skill and choice. You pick your gun, for your gameplay. If your gun doesn't suit your needs, tough **** that was your decision. If you out shoot the other player even though your gun wasn't ideal, congrats! You win!

    MMOs do not work in a similar fashion. You pick your playstyle, it differs from other players. That's where the similarity ends. Certain builds will beat other builds, regardless of how well the underdog plays. GET OVER IT. That is the very nature of an MMO.

    Competative, yes. Balanced, **** off. That's not how things work here. Get over it, go wreck someone else and enjoy it. Pure balance is meant for playing fields where all players are equal and only choices and skill matter. MMOs concentrate on a combination, but you can't measure your worth as a player by a loss, only by your performance during the game that you were outmatched in.
    I love your sarcasm, but MMOs are a team based game, and are not meant to measure a persons individual skills. It's meant to measure their cooperation, and tactics in group on group situations. However, the best MMO players can shine solo, by beating the class(es) they're not meant to beat. It's like trapping the Queen with a couple Pawns in Chess.

    It cracks me up though, the biggest QQ Leagues in MMOs, are FPS players, who're also part of the biggest QQ Leagues, in RTS style games like Starcraft. Coincidence?

    A FPS is like a Tennis Player trying out for football, and complaining that they can't get a free shot at the quarterback, without having to go through a bunch of other guys.
    Last edited by Visions; 06-19-2011 at 05:22 PM.


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  11. #11
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Visions View Post
    Heals are the very backbone of MMOs, so why try to change that, when you've got your FPS to play? FPS games is like checkers, MMOs is like chess. You need far more team work, and strategy to succeed in MMOs, but then we get a massive amount of FPS QQ League players, and it ruins the game. Clerics are strong, but not unkillable, players being healed are stronger, but no unkillable. If you want easy mode head shots, this isn't the genre of gaming for you.

    Waaahhhh, I had to work for that kills, nerf Clerics.
    Maybe if the only FPS you've ever played is Call of Duty.
    "Nothing is more unjust, however common, than to charge with hypocrisy him that expresses zeal for those virtues which he neglects to practice; since he may be sincerely convinced of the advantages of conquering his passions, without having yet obtained the victory........"

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    Plane Touched Jural's Avatar
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    I don't think increasing armor or tanking abilities for every player is the answer to "absorbing" damage. Then nobody could be one or two-shot, and it's those occasional one-shots that make DPS players feel powerful.

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    Shield of Telara aabuster1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NatashaK View Post
    Make taunts work in PvP
    I agree with this statement.

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    Rift Chaser Misterjingo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Visions View Post
    I love your sarcasm, but MMOs are a team based game, and are not meant to measure a persons individual skills.
    100% agree! So those antisocial, lolspec clerics, who are drooling and facerolling their keyboards as they "tank" multiple players should actually be solo-able *but* be protected by a TEAM. So the team benefits from the cleric, and the cleric is protected by the team.

    Currently such clerics are anti-team play as they don't need a team to survive, but they need a team to take them down. Just watch how many solo clerics roll up in WFS to take the flag solo across the field.
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    Ascendant Visions's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misterjingo View Post
    Currently such clerics are anti-team play as they don't need a team to survive, but they need a team to take them down. Just watch how many solo clerics roll up in WFS to take the flag solo across the field.
    You guys must really be bad if a single Cleric can move in, grab the flag, and you case them across the field, and not kill them. As a mage a single Cleric will never get the fang, flag, or shard if I'm on it.

    Fraps it sometime, because this I've got to see.
    Last edited by Visions; 06-20-2011 at 06:05 AM.


    MMORPG played: Everquest I, Dark Age of Camelot, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Everquest II, Aion, Warhammer Online, and Fallen Earth (BETA only).
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