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Thread: Solution Proposal: How To Fix Cleric OPness in PvP

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    Ven
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    Default Solution Proposal: How To Fix Cleric OPness in PvP

    Yea yea focus them down.. bullcrap. When there's mutliple healers it rapidly reaches a point where there is not enough DPS in the WF to kill them.

    So.. DON'T CHANGE HEALERS AT ALL. DO NOT NERF THEM. We need them; seriously.

    What we need is for healer teams (almost every WF I'm in there's 4 or 5 healing clerics) to have to THINK and not just spam their instants making their team and themselves immortal.

    SIMPLE SOLUTION: Increased mana costs for stacked heals in PvP.

    One cleric? Everything is same. Coordinated focused fire and abilities required to kill said cleric or their teammate.
    Two clerics stacking HoTs? The second HoT costs 50% more mana.
    Three clerics stacking HoTs? The third HoT costs 100% more mana.
    Four clerics stacking HoTs? The fourth HoT costs 200% more mana.
    ...

    OMG the clerics would have to THINK! And they wouldn't be able to make their team immortal rolling perpetual stacked HoTs.

    The HoTs are wiped? Reapply them no penalty.

    Seems like a simlpe solution that doesn't impact PvE and gets rid of the current state where "the team with the most clerics wins". They'd be able to stack HoTs on a targetted key player but it'd actually cost them something and they would not be able to do it for as long as they do now... like when an entire team is trying to focus fire a fang carrier with four healers behind him and can't hurt him at all. Half way down the field the clerics go OOM. Gee maybe they'll need some DPS support next time too eh? Instead of stacking so many clerics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ven View Post
    Yea yea focus them down.. bullcrap. When there's mutliple healers it rapidly reaches a point where there is not enough DPS in the WF to kill them.

    So.. DON'T CHANGE HEALERS AT ALL. DO NOT NERF THEM. We need them; seriously.

    What we need is for healer teams (almost every WF I'm in there's 4 or 5 healing clerics) to have to THINK and not just spam their instants making their team and themselves immortal.

    SIMPLE SOLUTION: Increased mana costs for stacked heals in PvP.

    One cleric? Everything is same. Coordinated focused fire and abilities required to kill said cleric or their teammate.
    Two clerics stacking HoTs? The second HoT costs 50% more mana.
    Three clerics stacking HoTs? The third HoT costs 100% more mana.
    Four clerics stacking HoTs? The fourth HoT costs 200% more mana.
    ...

    OMG the clerics would have to THINK! And they wouldn't be able to make their team immortal rolling perpetual stacked HoTs.

    The HoTs are wiped? Reapply them no penalty.

    Seems like a simlpe solution that doesn't impact PvE and gets rid of the current state where "the team with the most clerics wins". They'd be able to stack HoTs on a targetted key player but it'd actually cost them something and they would not be able to do it for as long as they do now... like when an entire team is trying to focus fire a fang carrier with four healers behind him and can't hurt him at all. Half way down the field the clerics go OOM. Gee maybe they'll need some DPS support next time too eh? Instead of stacking so many clerics.
    Who cares about CC, marksmen purges, and 75% healing debuffs....

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    Plane Touched Aleck0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ven View Post
    Yea yea focus them down.. bullcrap. When there's mutliple healers it rapidly reaches a point where there is not enough DPS in the WF to kill them.

    So.. DON'T CHANGE HEALERS AT ALL. DO NOT NERF THEM. We need them; seriously.

    What we need is for healer teams (almost every WF I'm in there's 4 or 5 healing clerics) to have to THINK and not just spam their instants making their team and themselves immortal.

    SIMPLE SOLUTION: Increased mana costs for stacked heals in PvP.

    One cleric? Everything is same. Coordinated focused fire and abilities required to kill said cleric or their teammate.
    Two clerics stacking HoTs? The second HoT costs 50% more mana.
    Three clerics stacking HoTs? The third HoT costs 100% more mana.
    Four clerics stacking HoTs? The fourth HoT costs 200% more mana.
    ...

    OMG the clerics would have to THINK! And they wouldn't be able to make their team immortal rolling perpetual stacked HoTs.

    The HoTs are wiped? Reapply them no penalty.

    Seems like a simlpe solution that doesn't impact PvE and gets rid of the current state where "the team with the most clerics wins". They'd be able to stack HoTs on a targetted key player but it'd actually cost them something and they would not be able to do it for as long as they do now... like when an entire team is trying to focus fire a fang carrier with four healers behind him and can't hurt him at all. Half way down the field the clerics go OOM. Gee maybe they'll need some DPS support next time too eh? Instead of stacking so many clerics.
    Meh. It's an interesting idea, but a lot of healers aren't healing with HoTs. It doesn't fix the real issue.
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    Ven
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sundial View Post
    Who cares about CC, marksmen purges, and 75% healing debuffs....
    You read the part of the proposal where there's no penalty reapplying right? Scared you'd actually have to think instead of spamming instants? And yea... when the target is debuffed it's going to cost you more instead of being irrelevant like it is now.

    Seems right.

    edit: CC'd? LOL. When there's mulitple clerics CC'ing all of them is extremely unlikely. Most of them will be immune most of the time. Or do you not PvP at all and don't know this?
    Last edited by Ven; 06-15-2011 at 11:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ven View Post
    You read the part of the proposal where there's no penalty reapplying right? Scared you'd actually have to think instead of spamming instants? And yea... when the target is debuffed it's going to cost you more instead of being irrelevant like it is now.

    Seems right.
    My premades has 0 problems taking down teams with 4-6 clerics. Not sure what you are complaining about unless you are PUGing it. The game is balanced around teams cooperating, not playing solo.

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    Ven
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleck0 View Post
    Meh. It's an interesting idea, but a lot of healers aren't healing with HoTs. It doesn't fix the real issue.
    I think it may - most direct heals apply a HoT with talents so it'd apply to them as well. Plus direct heals typically cost more in the first place (and have cooldowns) so has a similar effect on immortal longevity.

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    -- 30% - 75% Heal Reduction; Yes, the Dominator can reduce healing by 75%.
    -- A ton of purges; No, the Marksman isn't the only class that can purge. Yes, they're VERY effective against all healing classes.
    -- Blight; which strips ALL heal over times, regardless of how many are on a target, and grants a 50% heal reduction to boot. Say what?
    -- Burst DPS, which varies from a single player in the amounts of 2500-4500 for three seconds, which means you're dishing out 7500-13500 damage during that time, *IF* you have cooldowns available, including those abilities that do not trigger the global cooldown.
    -- FOCUSING; aka assisting. Wait a minute, you mean PUGs can assist too? Get out of here, why would I want to assist? See Burst DPS above this note. No healer in the game can live through two GOOD DPS PLAYERS, assisting, unless three healers are healing that target, for which you need (justly so) to add one more DPS, per two healers. Stack too many healers on one side, the side with a balance of DPS will win EVERY DAMN TIME!!
    -- Crowd Control; yes it is still damned effective, even with diminishing returns. But, I understand you need to be smart to use them.
    -- Power drains (Mana drains) from Dominator, and Void Knight. Post 1.3 a 51 spec Dominator can drain a Cleric in 5 seconds, unless they change it on the PTS server.

    So why on Gods green earth are people still having a problem killing a healing Cleric? Wait a minute, I understand, you want to PUG it up, not communicate with your team, and be able to kill any single Cleric, solo, even though they've got multiple Clerics healing them, and tanks protecting them. GET OUT OF HERE WITH SUCH NONSENSE!

    Fact of the matter is in a Warfront you need to assist, to kill anyone, not just the Cleric. Because of this, at the start of a Warfront a DPS player needs to step up, and say; "I will be calling the targets we need to kill, so when you see me call a target, assist me". Then you make a macro that says; "ASSIST ON ME", which you'll use to get people to assist you. This alone will fix more than half the problems people are facing in Warfronts. It's getting old that people want to spec the highest damage PvE build, and go blindly in Warfronts to spam DPS, and look at the DPS chart, without little thought to anything else. Get away from using that 1 macro, and spec your toons to kill Clerics.
    Last edited by Visions; 06-15-2011 at 12:06 PM.


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    Shield of Telara Znick's Avatar
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    There's no problem with clerics in WF's, and they're nowhere near "OP".

    I play a cleric and typically lead the field in heals. However... once we're around 3 minutes into a WF, against a premade or not, word gets out who I am, and I'm literally focused down often in 4-6 seconds. There's a LOT of ways to stop or kill me. Don't blame me when nobody uses them.

    Someone with healing powers SHOULD be able to live longer. However, if all I'm doing is healing myself, I'm not healing my team, nor am I doing DPS.

    A few people have trouble killing someone who specs in longevity, and suddenly we're OP? Hell no. I give up speed, DPS, utility, and other mechanics to be this way. "OP" would be if I could kill the 4 people on me, not just heal through them for 20 seconds.

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    Last edited by Znick; 06-15-2011 at 12:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Visions View Post
    -- 30% - 75% Heal Reduction; Yes, the Dominator can reduce healing by 75%.
    -- A ton of purges; No, the Marksman isn't the only class that can purge. Yes, they're VERY effective against all healing classes.
    -- Blight; which strips ALL heal over times, regardless of how many are on a target, and grants a 50% heal reduction to boot. Say what?
    -- Burst DPS, which varies from a single player in the amounts of 2500-4500 for three seconds, which means you're dishing out 7500-13500 damage during that time, *IF* you have cooldowns available, including those abilities that do not trigger the global cooldown.
    -- FOCUSING; aka assisting. Wait a minute, you mean PUGs can assist too? Get out of here, why would I want to assist? See Burst DPS above this note. No healer in the game can live through two GOOD DPS PLAYERS, assisting, unless three healers are healing that target, for which you need (justly so) to add one more DPS, per two healers. Stack too many healers on one side, the side with a balance of DPS will win EVERY DAMN TIME!!
    -- Crowd Control; yes it is still damned effective, even with diminishing returns. But, I understand you need to be smart to use them.
    -- Power drains (Mana drains) from Dominator, and Void Knight. Post 1.3 a 51 spec Dominator can drain a Cleric in 5 seconds, unless they change it on the PTS server.

    So why on Gods green earth are people still having a problem killing a healing Cleric? Wait a minute, I understand, you want to PUG it up, not communicate with your team, and be able to kill any single Cleric, solo, even though they've got multiple Clerics healing them, and tanks protecting them. GET OUT OF HERE WITH SUCH NONSENSE!

    Fact of the matter is in a Warfront you need to assist, to kill anyone, not just the Cleric. Because of this, at the start of a Warfront a DPS player needs to step up, and say; "I will be calling the targets we need to kill, so when you see me call a target, assist me". Then you make a macro that says; "ASSIST ON ME", which you'll use to get people to assist you. This alone will fix more than half the problems people are facing in Warfronts. It's getting old that people want to spec the highest damage PvE build, and go blindly in Warfronts to spam DPS, and look at the DPS chart, without little thought to anything else. Get away from using that 1 macro, and spec your toons to kill Clerics.
    Sounds about right....Not to mention with the huge mana regen nerf come 1.3, they essentially already did raise the cost of all spells.
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    Ascendant Visions's Avatar
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    Look at this screenshot, and see how easy it is to kill Clerics.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/60822953@N04/5836748303/

    There was actually 6 Clerics in this Warfront, three of which were Rank 6 Clerics. We killed one Rank 6 Clerics so fast, and so often, they left the Warfront. You'll notice the Clerics in this Warfront died to us 24 times, 19 times, 16 times, 8 times, 7 times, and 5 times. What you DON'T see is a tank at the bottom, which I should have scrolled down to show, who didn't die to us a single time, the entire Warfront. We couldn't kill this tank, at all. He actually was in a tank spec, and we ended up at the end of the Warfront, not attacking him, and just talking to him.

    Our entire crew spec's to kill Clerics, and because of this, they die stupidly easy to us, and we win 9 out of 10 Warfronts becuase the other team isn't getting efficient healing. YOU TOO CAN KILL CLERICS! So quit crying about them, and learn how to kill them.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Znick View Post
    There's no problem with clerics in WF's, and they're nowhere near "OP".

    I play a cleric and typically lead the field in heals. However... once we're around 3 minutes into a WF, against a premade or not, word gets out who I am, and I'm literally focused down often in 4-6 seconds. There's a LOT of ways to stop or kill me. Don't blame me when nobody uses them.

    Someone with healing powers SHOULD be able to live longer. However, if all I'm doing is healing myself, I'm not healing my team, nor am I doing DPS.

    A few people have trouble killing someone who specs in longevity, and suddenly we're OP? Hell no. I give up speed, DPS, utility, and other mechanics to be this way. "OP" would be if I could kill the 4 people on me, not just heal through them for 20 seconds.

    Z
    "clerics are not OP.. I play a cleric"

    ok man.

  12. #12
    Ven
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    Quote Originally Posted by Visions View Post
    -- 30% - 75% Heal Reduction; Yes, the Dominator can reduce healing by 75%.
    -- A ton of purges; No, the Marksman isn't the only class that can purge. Yes, they're VERY effective against all healing classes.
    -- Blight; which strips ALL heal over times, regardless of how many are on a target, and grants a 50% heal reduction to boot. Say what?
    -- Burst DPS, which varies from a single player in the amounts of 2500-4500 for three seconds, which means you're dishing out 7500-13500 damage during that time, *IF* you have cooldowns available, including those abilities that do not trigger the global cooldown.
    -- FOCUSING; aka assisting. Wait a minute, you mean PUGs can assist too? Get out of here, why would I want to assist? See Burst DPS above this note. No healer in the game can live through two GOOD DPS PLAYERS, assisting, unless three healers are healing that target, for which you need (justly so) to add one more DPS, per two healers. Stack too many healers on one side, the side with a balance of DPS will win EVERY DAMN TIME!!
    -- Crowd Control; yes it is still damned effective, even with diminishing returns. But, I understand you need to be smart to use them.
    -- Power drains (Mana drains) from Dominator, and Void Knight. Post 1.3 a 51 spec Dominator can drain a Cleric in 5 seconds, unless they change it on the PTS server.

    So why on Gods green earth are people still having a problem killing a healing Cleric? Wait a minute, I understand, you want to PUG it up, not communicate with your team, and be able to kill any single Cleric, solo, even though they've got multiple Clerics healing them, and tanks protecting them. GET OUT OF HERE WITH SUCH NONSENSE!

    Fact of the matter is in a Warfront you need to assist, to kill anyone, not just the Cleric. Because of this, at the start of a Warfront a DPS player needs to step up, and say; "I will be calling the targets we need to kill, so when you see me call a target, assist me". Then you make a macro that says; "ASSIST ON ME", which you'll use to get people to assist you. This alone will fix more than half the problems people are facing in Warfronts. It's getting old that people want to spec the highest damage PvE build, and go blindly in Warfronts to spam DPS, and look at the DPS chart, without little thought to anything else. Get away from using that 1 macro, and spec your toons to kill Clerics.
    Nice rant.. but you ignore the point. Focus fire coordination debuffs et.al. all are great with one or two clerics. You're absolutley right about that.

    All the things you mention (less eradicate and it takes the MM out of the fight - i.e. no damage) have cooldowns and there are not enough DPS on the field to apply them to all the clerics. If such a change were implemented I'd support eradicate being toned down - wipe 1 buff or have a cooldown.

    THE PROBLEM IN WFs is Cleric stacked teams making all of them immortal. If there's two clerics on the team this proposal has very little impact. Three clerics? Still a benefit but the CLERICS would have to coordinate and think in addition to the DPS having to coordinate and think. What is it you don't like? That you'd have to take some of your own medicine regarding teamwork and strategy?

    So I think this proposal still stands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ven View Post
    Nice rant.. but you ignore the point. Focus fire coordination debuffs et.al. all are great with one or two clerics. You're absolutley right about that.
    I know I'm right, and this works regardless of the number of Clerics. See my screenshot.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/60822953@N04/5836748303/

    We make Rank 6 Clerics leave Warfronts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ven View Post
    All the things you mention (less eradicate and it takes the MM out of the fight - i.e. no damage) have cooldowns and there are not enough DPS on the field to apply them to all the clerics. If such a change were implemented I'd support eradicate being toned down - wipe 1 buff or have a cooldown.
    The Marksman eradicate isn't the only purge, and if a Marksman using eradicate isn't doing any damage, they are a bad player. Rogues have a 1 second global cooldown, while a Cleric has a 1.5 second global cooldown, which means the Rogue can get off 3 attacks, to a Clerics 2 abilities. A GOOD Marksman should be using 1 eradicate, per 3 abilities, giving them 2 seconds of pure damage. With just one eradicate cycles in, the Rogue is sitll building charges for that massive finishing blow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ven View Post
    THE PROBLEM IN WFs is Cleric stacked teams making all of them immortal.
    No, it doesn't. Again, see my screenshot.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/60822953@N04/5836748303/

    We make Rank 6 Clerics leave Warfronts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ven View Post
    If there's two clerics on the team this proposal has very little impact. Three clerics? Still a benefit but the CLERICS would have to coordinate and think in addition to the DPS having to coordinate and think. What is it you don't like? That you'd have to take some of your own medicine regarding teamwork and strategy?

    So I think this proposal still stands.
    This proposal would be as stupid as me asking for a proposal that reduced damage DPS classes were doing, based off the number of people targeting, the target. It's a bad proposal, period. Everyone should be assisting, if you're not, you're not going to kill anyone, and that doesn't make a class, or classes overpowered. It makes the players bad for not communicating, and working as a TEAM.
    Last edited by Visions; 06-15-2011 at 12:29 PM.


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    You really need to fix your title on this thread. Cleric's are not OP in PvP. How many of them do you see owning face out there? They doing Top DPS, mashing you in a 1vs1 are they? Or are they just healing through your DPS and making you mad you can't KILL them. Be specific here please. So many of you are saying Clerics are OP in PvP when what you really mean is a HEALER is HARD to KILL.

    Now that we have that cleared up, lets look at what you all want in your PvP matches. You ALL want people to play healer for you. You ALL want them to HEAL you. You ALL want to be able to easily kill the same healers you want keeping you alive.

    Seems to me you ALL want to have nobody healing you in PvP matches.

    Oh and just to focus on what I said above...how many of you have been killed in PvP by all that awesome Cleric OP DPS again?? Thats what I thought. "HEAL MEH!!!"
    Last edited by Kedd; 06-15-2011 at 12:35 PM.

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    Ven
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    Quote Originally Posted by Visions View Post
    I know I'm right, and this works regardless of the number of Clerics. See my screenshot.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/60822953@N04/5836748303/

    We make Rank 6 Clerics leave Warfronts.



    The Marksman eradicate isn't the only purge, and if a Marksman using eradicate isn't doing any damage, they are a bad player. Rogues have a 1 second global cooldown, while a Cleric has a 1.5 second global cooldown, which means the Rogue can get off 3 attacks, to a Clerics 2 abilities. A GOOD Marksman should be using 1 eradicate, per 3 abilities, giving them 2 seconds of pure damage. With just one eradicate cycles in, the Rogue is sitll building charges for that massive finishing blow.



    No, it doesn't. Again, see my screenshot.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/60822953@N04/5836748303/

    We make Rank 6 Clerics leave Warfronts.



    This proposal would be as stupid as me asking for a proposal that reduced damage DPS classes were doing, based off the number of people targeting, the target. It's a bad proposal, period. Everyone should be assisting, if you're not, you're not going to kill anyone, and that doesn't make a class, or classes overpowered. It makes the players bad for not communicating, and working as a TEAM.
    LOL. How many clerics were on your team eh? LOL

    Yea you can stack clerics too... hahahahaha

    Secondarily: MM cannot do as you mention becasue they're rapidly focus starved. But this isn't even about that....

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