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Thread: PvP should be balanced through the PvP souls, NOT through gear. Hear me out.

  1. #1
    Ascendant Visions's Avatar
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    Default PvP should be balanced through the PvP souls, NOT through gear. Hear me out.

    Instead of placing Valor on PvP gear, PvP gear should be pretty much a complete copy of PvE gear, and you should have to spec your PvP souls, to gain better stats against players. This could be from base values you can spec 5 points in, to greater values you have access too, as you level up your PvP ranks.

    EXAMPLE Rogue "Infiltrator"

    F-J-0-6
    E-I-9-5
    D-H8-4
    C-G7-3
    ---B2---
    ---A1---

    *Note: Each letter, and number is in the position they'd be on the current soul tree.

    A: (5 points) 4% per point reduction in PvP damage.
    1: (5 points) 2% per point increase in PvP damage, and a 2% per point increase in armor penetration.
    B: (5 points) 3% per point reduction in PvP critical damage.
    2: (5 points) 1% per point increase in critical hits, and 2% per point increase in critical damage.
    C: (2 Points) 3% reduction in damage, per point spent when under the effects of stun, disarm, and silence.
    3: (2 points) 10% chance per point to proc a life-tap, that does 200 damage to the player, and heals the rogue 200 points.

    You would be able to use A through F for PvP defensive measures, and use 1 through 6 for offensive measures, while using the middle of the tree for utility (extra spells off global cooldowns), and the ability to increase your own stats.

    It would be far, far easier to balance PvP issues through a 21 point tree, for every class, rather than through gear. In my opinion of course.


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    Ascendant Apoth's Avatar
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    I agree completely i like this idea a lot. infact when they first announced the PVP soul i thought thats what would happen from the beginning.

    good stuff visions.
    Last edited by Apoth; 06-14-2011 at 01:40 PM.

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    Ascendant Stigas's Avatar
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    I've been saying something like this all along.

    Great post.

    Well, not EXACTLY like this, but I always thought the PvP souls should be the balancing point for PvP.
    Last edited by Stigas; 06-14-2011 at 01:49 PM.

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    Champion of Telara
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    While I don't necessarily agree with requiring people to spend 21 of their points on this if they want to pvp (reducing build options) I do agree with the overall idea of your post.

    Something closer to DAOC realm ranks and realm points, rather than a WoW inspired gear tiering system.

  5. #5
    General of Telara Sunspots's Avatar
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    In theory sure, but in reality, I think it would take alot more work than simply saying, PvP soul is *the* soul for pvp. After all, by stipulating this one soul mandatory for pvp, then you are essentially trivializing the very thing rift is most proud of, the nature of the soul building system. Not to mention, the rank 6 people who have the ability to stat highest in the pvp tree will still be better than those who are not. Unless of course the tree itself stays as trivial as its current state, for most classes that is.

    In the end, just get out of the mindset that MMORPG PvP will ever be balanced, its a pipe dream. It has never ever existed in any MMO, and the closer you get to that golden gorilla in the room, the more all the classes are just rehashed homogenzized copies of each other.

    Balance may never be achieved between each class, but the very nature of the system is that it is balanced between both sides. Defiants have the same use of OP and FOTM classes that Guardian do, and if all you want to do is Dominate in PvP, you can just keep rerolling everytime the game changes. Those of us who accept the flaws of MMOPVP and don't treat this side game of the real game, *as* the whole game, learn to adapt and have fun despite its flaws. If this doesn't describe you, do yourself a favor and try FPS. It really is exactly what you think you want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunspots View Post
    In theory sure, but in reality, I think it would take alot more work than simply saying, PvP soul is *the* soul for pvp. After all, by stipulating this one soul mandatory for pvp, then you are essentially trivializing the very thing rift is most proud of, the nature of the soul building system. Not to mention, the rank 6 people who have the ability to stat highest in the pvp tree will still be better than those who are not. Unless of course the tree itself stays as trivial as its current state, for most classes that is.

    In the end, just get out of the mindset that MMORPG PvP will ever be balanced, its a pipe dream. It has never ever existed in any MMO, and the closer you get to that golden gorilla in the room, the more all the classes are just rehashed homogenzized copies of each other.

    Balance may never be achieved between each class, but the very nature of the system is that it is balanced between both sides. Defiants have the same use of OP and FOTM classes that Guardian do, and if all you want to do is Dominate in PvP, you can just keep rerolling everytime the game changes. Those of us who accept the flaws of MMOPVP and don't treat this side game of the real game, *as* the whole game, learn to adapt and have fun despite its flaws. If this doesn't describe you, do yourself a favor and try FPS. It really is exactly what you think you want.
    I do enjoy fps games on occasion. I also enjoy mmo pvp. So while I appreciate you telling what you think I want, I assure you that I am quite capable of articulating what I actually want.
    Last edited by Snyrf; 06-14-2011 at 01:58 PM. Reason: typo

  7. #7
    Ascendant Visions's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunspots View Post
    In theory sure, but in reality, I think it would take alot more work than simply saying, PvP soul is *the* soul for pvp. After all, by stipulating this one soul mandatory for pvp, then you are essentially trivializing the very thing rift is most proud of, the nature of the soul building system. Not to mention, the rank 6 people who have the ability to stat highest in the pvp tree will still be better than those who are not. Unless of course the tree itself stays as trivial as its current state, for most classes that is.

    In the end, just get out of the mindset that MMORPG PvP will ever be balanced, its a pipe dream. It has never ever existed in any MMO, and the closer you get to that golden gorilla in the room, the more all the classes are just rehashed homogenzized copies of each other.

    Balance may never be achieved between each class, but the very nature of the system is that it is balanced between both sides. Defiants have the same use of OP and FOTM classes that Guardian do, and if all you want to do is Dominate in PvP, you can just keep rerolling everytime the game changes. Those of us who accept the flaws of MMOPVP and don't treat this side game of the real game, *as* the whole game, learn to adapt and have fun despite its flaws. If this doesn't describe you, do yourself a favor and try FPS. It really is exactly what you think you want.
    You're right, you can not balance a MMO, but that isn't going to stop the developing team from trying, nor will it stop the massive amount of QQ that comes from the same 20 people every patch. So because they're going to try, they should pick a method that benefits them, and allows them to tweak by adjusting minor percentages, across all boards.

    If you look at my post history, I have never cried about anything being overpowered, instead you'll notice I fight against all nerfs. I like the challenges of beating, or countering what some would rather cry about.

    It takes half the time for a player to get to Rank 6, than it does for them to get the Rank 6 gear, so this would fix most of the gear gap problems, while allowing for a much wider variety of gear to be used in PvP.


    MMORPG played: Everquest I, Dark Age of Camelot, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Everquest II, Aion, Warhammer Online, and Fallen Earth (BETA only).
    We all meet as equals on the battlefield, but we don't leave as such.
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    Ascendant Delphya's Avatar
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    This is a good suggestion, I would like to add to this by saying that the PVP souls should be paid for with favor/prestige, not treated like a normal soul. They are not a normal soul, they end up destroying good builds by offering mostly useless skills that cannot compensate for the loss of a full soul.

    By making the PVP souls a complete different soul not linked to the 3 soul system and paid for by Favor (at rank 0) and Prestige (at rank 1-6) good builds that players play from level 7-49 would still be viable at level 50.
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    Ascendant Visions's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delphya View Post
    This is a good suggestion, I would like to add to this by saying that the PVP souls should be paid for with favor/prestige, not treated like a normal soul. They are not a normal soul, they end up destroying good builds by offering mostly useless skills that cannot compensate for the loss of a full soul.

    By making the PVP souls a complete different soul not linked to the 3 soul system and paid for by Favor (at rank 0) and Prestige (at rank 1-6) good builds that players play from level 7-49 would still be viable at level 50.
    Buying points, up to 21 with favor is actually a good idea.


    MMORPG played: Everquest I, Dark Age of Camelot, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Everquest II, Aion, Warhammer Online, and Fallen Earth (BETA only).
    We all meet as equals on the battlefield, but we don't leave as such.
    Topeka Photography

  10. #10
    General of Telara Sunspots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snyrf View Post
    I do enjoy fps games on occasion. I also enjoy mmo pvp. So while I appreciate you telling what you think I want, I assure you that I am quite capable of articulating what I actually want.
    Interesting this is the part of my post you would pick to respond to, defensive much? Don't start a debate if your not willing to hear contrary opinions. If you do in fact enjoy MMO PVP, then you realize this is par for the course in most games in the industry. They could change the entire system and it would still be unbalanced between classes in a 1v1 sense and people would still complain, so at the end of the day, whats the reason to do anything differently than they are doing?

    Sunspots the Retired
    Once R8 Guardian Cleric of Seastone
    Proud Alumni of [breaking bads]

    Observe my Past Glory in Video Format here!!

  11. #11
    Ascendant Visions's Avatar
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    It would be a far cry easier for them to balance through the PvP souls, rather than gear.


    MMORPG played: Everquest I, Dark Age of Camelot, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Everquest II, Aion, Warhammer Online, and Fallen Earth (BETA only).
    We all meet as equals on the battlefield, but we don't leave as such.
    Topeka Photography

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delphya View Post
    This is a good suggestion, I would like to add to this by saying that the PVP souls should be paid for with favor/prestige, not treated like a normal soul. They are not a normal soul, they end up destroying good builds by offering mostly useless skills that cannot compensate for the loss of a full soul.

    By making the PVP souls a complete different soul not linked to the 3 soul system and paid for by Favor (at rank 0) and Prestige (at rank 1-6) good builds that players play from level 7-49 would still be viable at level 50.
    I totally agree, but they would need to redo the souls similar to daoc imo. with more passive abilities, such as small stat increases. This however would cause outrage to the pve, but also give more people reason to pvp. Pvpers have to pve to get better weapons, so pvers can pvp to get these better stats and some more cooldowns. I don't think it should stop at 21 points. It should be like daoc, where there's not really a limit, but it takes alot longer for less gain the higher you get... But you are not pvping for no reward other than the fun of killing people.

  13. #13
    General of Telara Pippington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Visions View Post
    Instead of placing Valor on PvP gear, PvP gear should be pretty much a complete copy of PvE gear, and you should have to spec your PvP souls, to gain better stats against players. This could be from base values you can spec 5 points in, to greater values you have access too, as you level up your PvP ranks.

    EXAMPLE Rogue "Infiltrator"

    F-J-0-6
    E-I-9-5
    D-H8-4
    C-G7-3
    ---B2---
    ---A1---

    *Note: Each letter, and number is in the position they'd be on the current soul tree.

    A: (5 points) 4% per point reduction in PvP damage.
    1: (5 points) 2% per point increase in PvP damage, and a 2% per point increase in armor penetration.
    B: (5 points) 3% per point reduction in PvP critical damage.
    2: (5 points) 1% per point increase in critical hits, and 2% per point increase in critical damage.
    C: (2 Points) 3% reduction in damage, per point spent when under the effects of stun, disarm, and silence.
    3: (2 points) 10% chance per point to proc a life-tap, that does 200 damage to the player, and heals the rogue 200 points.

    You would be able to use A through F for PvP defensive measures, and use 1 through 6 for offensive measures, while using the middle of the tree for utility (extra spells off global cooldowns), and the ability to increase your own stats.

    It would be far, far easier to balance PvP issues through a 21 point tree, for every class, rather than through gear. In my opinion of course.




    The only problem with that is it allows people to run around in PvE gear and be better because of PvE gear.

    Which is why the PvP gear/PvE gear split occurs in MMO, otherwise PvE gear is always best for PvP.

    Where as with specialist PvP gear Devs can allow the best PvE gear to stay ahead on Dragon drops (or whatever), but retain the core concept that the best gear for PvP should be PvP gear (gained though PvP).

    I like your idea though, combine it with PvP gear and it would be great.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pippington View Post
    I like your idea though, combine it with PvP gear and it would be great.
    Isn't that how it is now?

  15. #15
    Rift Chaser inaliz's Avatar
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    Trion has done an amazing job at balancing pvp with the amount of combinations available. I have played every class and can say that the only truly overpowered soul currently is a pyromancer.

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