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Thread: Balancing PvP based on complaints: Please think about this, Trion

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    Default Balancing PvP based on complaints: Please think about this, Trion

    Some simple truths about pvp:

    1.) It's a zero-sum game. For every winner there is a loser. This is drastically different from pve, where players tend to win most of the time and mobs invariably lose. If mobs were sentient, they'd be raging all over the boards about horrible pve imbalance. But mobs are, for the most part, just oblivious little punching bags. Players, on the other hand, are not. When they fail, they notice. And if they leveled using pve content (quests, instances, rifts), they're definitely not comfortable with the idea of losing on even a semi-regular basis. They've been conditioned to expect a very high rate of success. That disposition doesn't mesh with competitive gaming.

    2.) It's a skill-based game. Pve is all about learning scripted encounters and managing people. Pvp is about knowing every soul, anticipating human opponents, and adapting to changing conditions. Succeeding in raids is no less impressive than succeeding in warfronts, but they are very different. Part of that difference is player accountability. In raids, when someone drops the ball, it's pretty obvious what went wrong. You can correct the mistake and move on without too much confusion. In pvp, with so many more variables, it's easier to shift mistakes around. Maybe the opposing souls are too strong. Maybe their gear is overwhelming you. Maybe the game is fundamentally broken. You hear these complaints all the time, but how often does someone take the blame for him/herself? People are naturally inclined to look outside of themselves when assigning blame, but a very large number of pvp complaints originate there.

    3.) It's a single, ever-advancing end-game. In pve, you hit 50 and queue up for some level 50 dungeons. When you obtain a little more gear, you start running T1s. Then it's on to T2s and raids. That's a very smooth and pleasant progression for the player; you never run into a situation where you're horribly outmatched by the opposition because you control your own rate of advancement. Pvp is completely different. Once you hit 50, you're in the same boat as everyone else. You face off against the whole range of "content" - other fresh 50s (entry level), rank 1-2 players (tier 1ish), rank 3-4s (tier 2ish), and rank 5-6s ("raid-level" competition). That's a very spiky and potentially harsh progression, but it's also sort of inherent to the game. You can take steps to smooth it out somewhat, but the "difficulty curve" of pvp will never be entirely in the hands of the player.

    With these truths in mind, please think about some of the upcoming changes to pvp. In particular, the changes to valor. I know it seems like these alterations will simply extend pvp battles and allow for more tactical play, but at some point you just remove that thrilling sense of "danger" that makes pvp so much different than pve. The unscripted nature of pvp is a big part of its charm, and sometimes that means people get blown up. Yes, it can be excessive sometimes. That's why the big red ball was so (deservedly) nerfed. But gutting all crits across the board? Giving pvers free valor? Is that really the right direction for pvp in Rift?

    Here's my advice. Take it or leave it.

    1.) Leave valor alone. Leave crits alone. Create crafted blue sets that provide ~66% of the stats of rank 1/2 gear. That gives entry level players a bit more protection heading into their first warfronts without giving pvers in full T2/3 gear an undeserved bump in survivability.

    2.) Rank-based warfront divisions. This is the only way you can mitigate pvp's "single end-game instance". There are countless ways to do this, but I favor just two divisions. The first is the "general queue", which caps all stats (valor, spell power, crit, etc.) at an amount equal to full rank 4 gear (talents granting stat bonuses would obviously be calculated after). A fresh 50 in the crafted set would still more than likely lose to a maxed player, but it wouldn't be an absolute curb-stomping. The second division would be the "expert queue", where stats would be entirely uncapped. This is also where you might start introducing some additional end-game pvp features.

  2. #2
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    Default *Applauds* *Bravo*

    Someone who has a similar mindset as me. Could not have said it better myself.

    Trion and people in general forget the fact that, for one thing you cannot please everyone. When you try to, you take away from the element of whatever you are trying to fix. People in MMO's are so dumb its amazing sometimes. They want things handed to them and want Trion to nerf a class if they cant kill them etc without looking at themselves and realizing they need to adjust? Give me a break people. This is pvp which is a COMPETITION AGAINST OTHER PEOPLE.

    In ANY competition, 90% of the time you do not start off owning or being the best and this goes for all competitions and not just MMO Pvp. Sports,school, work, etc......Specially sports. For example lets say you go into the NBA. 90% of time they are not fit enough, mentally tough and physically tough enough. Its a progression and can be hard and that is for almost any sport at any level if you are just entering. Same thing applies for lets say your job. You dont start off as CEO or CO-CEO or Manager 90% of the time.

    So back to PVP, PVP is a competition and if you don't like it you shouldn't be pvping and pveing where you win 80% of time and dont have to die 90% of the time starting off.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by handerhank View Post
    Some simple truths about pvp:

    1.) It's a zero-sum game. For every winner there is a loser. This is drastically different from pve, where players tend to win most of the time and mobs invariably lose. If mobs were sentient, they'd be raging all over the boards about horrible pve imbalance. But mobs are, for the most part, just oblivious little punching bags. Players, on the other hand, are not. When they fail, they notice. And if they leveled using pve content (quests, instances, rifts), they're definitely not comfortable with the idea of losing on even a semi-regular basis. They've been conditioned to expect a very high rate of success. That disposition doesn't mesh with competitive gaming.
    This is so true it hurts. The pve generation, not just mmo's but console game games aswell where the protagonist always succeeds paints an unrealistic expectation in any type of pvp environment (computer game or real life sports). This is why 9 out 10 times I prefer playing with RTS/FPS gamers or people that play some sort of real life sport. Losing is part of the experience.

    Most people complaining about pvp are part of this pve generation.

    Quote Originally Posted by handerhank View Post
    1.) Leave valor alone. Leave crits alone. Create crafted blue sets that provide ~66% of the stats of rank 1/2 gear. That gives entry level players a bit more protection heading into their first warfronts without giving pvers in full T2/3 gear an undeserved bump in survivability.
    The valour changes are fine. As a R6 warrior raking in 15+ kbs in black garden I welcome the change. The gear disparity and ttk is ridiculous right now and I can't imagine it being fun for the other end.

    Adjusting the crit rate might be overkill though.

    Quote Originally Posted by handerhank View Post
    2.) Rank-based warfront divisions. This is the only way you can mitigate pvp's "single end-game instance". There are countless ways to do this, but I favor just two divisions. The first is the "general queue", which caps all stats (valor, spell power, crit, etc.) at an amount equal to full rank 4 gear (talents granting stat bonuses would obviously be calculated after). A fresh 50 in the crafted set would still more than likely lose to a maxed player, but it wouldn't be an absolute curb-stomping. The second division would be the "expert queue", where stats would be entirely uncapped. This is also where you might start introducing some additional end-game pvp features.
    This +1 we need rated WF's.
    Last edited by Vaine; 06-14-2011 at 04:32 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by handerhank View Post
    Some simple truths about pvp:

    1.) It's a zero-sum game. For every winner there is a loser. This is drastically different from pve, where players tend to win most of the time and mobs invariably lose. If mobs were sentient, they'd be raging all over the boards about horrible pve imbalance. But mobs are, for the most part, just oblivious little punching bags. Players, on the other hand, are not. When they fail, they notice. And if they leveled using pve content (quests, instances, rifts), they're definitely not comfortable with the idea of losing on even a semi-regular basis. They've been conditioned to expect a very high rate of success. That disposition doesn't mesh with competitive gaming.

    2.) It's a skill-based game.
    Stopped reading here. This is not a skill-based game. This is a gear-based game... absolutely nothing else to it. Skill only has a place when two R6s in full valor go at it.

  5. #5
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    Rifters need to realize that the players they come against come from games like Daoc, Aion, Guild Wars. Your opponents arrived very prepared. They know PvP mechanics, they wouldn't dream of entering a WF solo. They enjoy the competition, they prolly enjoy sports, getting drunk, having fun. They don't even give a **** if they lose to another good group.

    If you are about to start a thread with the word "nerf" or " Trion please balance" all you are serving to do us dilute the combat. Period, however clever you feel or wronged you think you are, you are up against players who are more experienced(not necessarily better) than you.

    I think Trion should start posting tips on the loading screens. That would help a little. Tips such as "consider signing up with partner who may benefit your style of play", "switch to a healing class if your party lacks healing", "try disarming that pesky champion to stop him hitting on you", "use whetstones to sharpen your swords". Lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysander Salavone View Post
    Stopped reading here. This is not a skill-based game. This is a gear-based game... absolutely nothing else to it. Skill only has a place when two R6s in full valor go at it.
    Please don't be bitter, take funny one-liners somewhere else. You just come over like a victim.

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    Would you rather they balanced based on praise?

    Player: "Wow, suchandsuch is awesome! It's the greatest thing in any mmo ever!"
    Dev: "They really love suchandsuch. Better nerf it so it's more in line with the rest of our content"
    Noco@Wolfsbane

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clipse View Post
    Please don't be bitter, take funny one-liners somewhere else. You just come over like a victim.
    I got sick of getting facerolled by Rank 6s as a fresh Rank 1 without even a chance to do anything meaningful well before reaching Rank 2. In a thread devoted to PvP problems, labeling this a skill-based PvP system is completely false. It's gear-based, plain and simple.

    I guess I was a victim for about 6 Warfronts at 50. Then I stopped PvPing because it was pointless, I couldn't impact anyone with better gear in any meaningful way and I wasn't having any fun. And this is coming from someone who is used to topping damage and killing blows from 10-49 when I did play.
    Last edited by Lysander Salavone; 06-14-2011 at 05:06 AM.

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    Swag, there are only two realms. Both realms have exactly the same classs with same skills. On one level the game is inherently balanced by default. End of.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysander Salavone View Post
    I got sick of getting facerolled by Rank 6s as a fresh Rank 1 without even a chance to do anything meaningful well before reaching Rank 2. In a thread devoted to PvP problems, labeling this a skill-based PvP system is completely false. It's gear-based, plain and simple.

    I guess I was a victim for about 6 Warfronts at 50. Then I stopped PvPing because it was pointless and I wasn't having any fun.
    I got sick of being facerolled by rank 6s- quote.

    Without even a chance to do anything about it- quote

    I was a victim for about 6 warfronts- quote

    Yes mate, you sound like a victim. I don't want to persecute you unessecarily so please. What you have just proved is that the game is being balanced around the words of players with 6 WF under their belt. Hahaha I played more than 6 WF on the first day of beta.

    Wait lol, let me get this straight, coz it it dumfounds me totally. You have only done 6 warfronts, hahaha. Yet you have 500 posts in the PvP boards. Dishing out the advice. Hahaha. Classic. I am likely to a warning for trolling you, yet you are allowed to go about mincing your Randy Savage *** like it is Mardi GRAS.

    6 warfronts. Hahahaha

  11. #11
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    Honestly - if the valor changes do what we think they're going to do, there needs to be three major changes:

    1. Mana drain for VK needs to be restored to at least partially where it used to be (especially since dominator is getting a new ability that apparently is as effective as the old drains were).
    2. CC needs to come more to the forefront again (for example: go back to the original DR method, whatever it was - never really understood how it worked exactly)
    3. We need to see some 'nearsight' type debuffs and more ranged reflects come into play to allow for melees to get in close without being focused down before having a chance to actually get someone killed when crossing the cap between the inevitable ranged standoffs.
    Last edited by Caeldan; 06-14-2011 at 05:20 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysander Salavone View Post
    I guess I was a victim for about 6 Warfronts at 50. Then I stopped PvPing because it was pointless, I couldn't impact anyone with better gear in any meaningful way and I wasn't having any fun. And this is coming from someone who is used to topping damage and killing blows from 10-49 when I did play.
    So because it got hard you quit .... gotcha.

    This is exactly what I'm taking about with the PVE generation: ' I couldn't impact anyone with better gear in any meaningful way and I wasn't having any fun' .... basically 'me me me!!!'.

    Here's a tip: You're not the only rank 2 in the WF, There are quite a few R1-R4 in any scenario and looking out for them is part of the game. Most R6 quit by now, or like me have rerolled other toons. I'm doing the R1-R6 grind again and I'm not complaining. I'm still having fun even when the occasional person 2 shots me.

    I for one can't wait for the valour changes which will bring a smaller variance to the valour stat.
    Last edited by Vaine; 06-14-2011 at 05:26 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clipse View Post
    I got sick of being facerolled by rank 6s- quote.

    Without even a chance to do anything about it- quote

    I was a victim for about 6 warfronts- quote

    Yes mate, you sound like a victim. I don't want to persecute you unessecarily so please. What you have just proved is that the game is being balanced around the words of players with 6 WF under their belt. Hahaha I played more than 6 WF on the first day of beta.

    Wait lol, let me get this straight, coz it it dumfounds me totally. You have only done 6 warfronts, hahaha. Yet you have 500 posts in the PvP boards. Dishing out the advice. Hahaha. Classic. I am likely to a warning for trolling you, yet you are allowed to go about mincing your Randy Savage *** like it is Mardi GRAS.

    6 warfronts. Hahahaha
    I did hundreds of warfronts... from 10-49 over 4 characters. I hit 50, saw what it was about, and said "Screw this."

    So because it got hard you quit .... gotcha.

    This is exactly what I'm taking about with the PVE generation: ' I couldn't impact anyone with better gear in any meaningful way and I wasn't having any fun' .... basically 'me me me!!!'.

    Here's a tip: You're not the only rank2 in the WF, There are quite a few R1-R4 in any scenario and looking out for them is part of the game. Most R6 quit by now, or like me have rerolled other toons. I'm doing the R1-R6 grind again and I'm not complaining. I'm still having fun even when the occasional person 2 shots me.
    Yes, me. Me. Me.

    When I'm better than a player, I expect to win. When I'm worse than a player, I expect to lose. When I go up against some scrub in Rank 6 gear who spams his macro button and kills me before I even get to 3 attack points, simply because he deals twice as much damage as me and takes half as much, I say screw this.

    And no, I'm not going to run around looking for undergeared people just so I can have an impact. That's the stupidest PvP suggestion I've ever seen.
    Last edited by Lysander Salavone; 06-14-2011 at 05:30 AM.

  14. #14
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    R1/2 gear is pretty meaningless versus R6 pugs.

    Instead of trying to give R1s a chance against R6s, they need to just make brackets and stop matching pugs against premades. No one enjoys a onesided face stomp, but sometimes you wanna jump in and kill a few people without forming your own premade. Pugs want to zerg, let them zerg against other pugs. Let pre mades fight other premades.

    R1/2 needs to be a bracket
    R3/4 needs to be a bracket
    R5/6 needs to be a bracket

    People will complain about that making the Qs take longer due to a diluted playerbase, but I think it'll be very much the opposite.

    PVP as R1 is no fun. You repeatedly get your head kicked in by R6s that started PVP day one and never had no fight an opponent that out ranks them. The PVE equivalent of PVP as it is now is trying to do GP as soon as you ding 50. You're just sorely outclassed. There's no real way to improve as you're dead before you get your buffs up.

    People that want the gear advantage suck at PVP and want it to lord over R1s. With tiers, there would still be gear advantages, just less overwhelming. People fresh to the bracket won't be decked out in R6 gear, but still have R3/4 gear and will stand a chance.

    I'm willing to be that if R1/2 pugs were matched up against R1/2 pugs, there would be a lot more people interested in PVP. Right now, it's simply too pointless unless you roll in a premade on vent... and that's not always desirable or possible. I know every couple of weeks I get a PVP itch and I start queuing up again... and then I end up sitting at the spawn point with the whole opposing team sitting at the foot of the hill focus firing anyone that gets near the ledge. Being farmed until you get enough consolation prestige to rank up is not fun.
    Last edited by Kayden Fox; 06-14-2011 at 05:32 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysander Salavone View Post
    I got sick of getting facerolled by Rank 6s as a fresh Rank 1 without even a chance to do anything meaningful well before reaching Rank 2. In a thread devoted to PvP problems, labeling this a skill-based PvP system is completely false. It's gear-based, plain and simple.

    I guess I was a victim for about 6 Warfronts at 50. Then I stopped PvPing because it was pointless, I couldn't impact anyone with better gear in any meaningful way and I wasn't having any fun. And this is coming from someone who is used to topping damage and killing blows from 10-49 when I did play.
    the problem is u stopped reading, the answer to ur problem is in the OP right after u stopped reading:

    Quote Originally Posted by handerhank View Post

    3.) It's a single, ever-advancing end-game. In pve, you hit 50 and queue up for some level 50 dungeons. When you obtain a little more gear, you start running T1s. Then it's on to T2s and raids. That's a very smooth and pleasant progression for the player; you never run into a situation where you're horribly outmatched by the opposition because you control your own rate of advancement. Pvp is completely different. Once you hit 50, you're in the same boat as everyone else. You face off against the whole range of "content" - other fresh 50s (entry level), rank 1-2 players (tier 1ish), rank 3-4s (tier 2ish), and rank 5-6s ("raid-level" competition). That's a very spiky and potentially harsh progression, but it's also sort of inherent to the game. You can take steps to smooth it out somewhat, but the "difficulty curve" of pvp will never be entirely in the hands of the player.

    Here's my advice. Take it or leave it.

    2.) Rank-based warfront divisions. This is the only way you can mitigate pvp's "single end-game instance". There are countless ways to do this, but I favor just two divisions. The first is the "general queue", which caps all stats (valor, spell power, crit, etc.) at an amount equal to full rank 4 gear (talents granting stat bonuses would obviously be calculated after). A fresh 50 in the crafted set would still more than likely lose to a maxed player, but it wouldn't be an absolute curb-stomping. The second division would be the "expert queue", where stats would be entirely uncapped. This is also where you might start introducing some additional end-game pvp features.
    See you all in Wildstar!

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