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Thread: 1.3 test changes discussion (note: discussion. not crying/raging.)

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    Ascendant Stay's Avatar
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    Default 1.3 test changes discussion (note: discussion. not crying/raging.)

    This probably won't work as a thread, because crying/raging has always been the single-minded purpose of this forum. But perhaps there are a few here who would like to talk about strategy and adapting to new changes. Maybe we will even be able to find each other's posts amidst the blinding monsoon of tears that comprises the rest of the forum.

    So, interesting topics:

    - What will be the effect of narrowing the gap between R1 and R6?
    Will this make premade teams of R6s less important? Universal valor should make it easier (some would say "possible") for healers to keep low-rank players alive. Without low-rank puggies getting globaled at the start of every fight, fights will last longer and have more participants in them. This may make AoE-centric specs more worthwhile, because there will be more people around to AoE. Will mana-draining return to prominence in longer, less-bursty fights?

    It will also likely place a premium on immunities or shields which allow players to interact with objectives while under attack. When wiping the enemy team is more difficult, taking the objective without needing to wipe them is more useful. For example, purifier spec clerics are currently the least common/effective of the 3 cleric healing specs in PvP. This could change, and potentially drastically.


    - How will players adapt to the gutting of crit as a useful PvP stat?
    Which specs will benefit and which will suffer? Do you plan to still count crit rating as valuable, or attempt to avoid it entirely? PvP trees featuring -15% chance to be crit will certainly become less useful when crits are so much less threatening. This may swing some classes and specs towards avoiding their PvP tree entirely. With the stat distribution on PvP gear the same at every tier, will the slots with lots of crit become skippable? Has anyone gotten a head start on finding comprable PvE or crafted gear for those slots, without crit on it?

    - How will the melee/ranged/healer dynamic change?
    Lowered burst will de-emphasize the current dominance of ranged DPS, as melee will have more time to close gaps and healers will have more time to keep people alive. Less cabability to disintigrate opponents before they can be healed will also increase the importance of healing debuffs, which favors melee as well. What are the chances that warriors will become the dominant DPS? Will melee rogues be durable enough to come out of stealth into the thick of a fight?

    It seems clear that lowered burst will stress the importance of healers, as it will be more difficult to burn people down through heals. Will dropping enemies be so difficult that fights last long enough for clerics to run out of mana? If so, will bards and chloros be competitive with clerics for healing, or even outshine them? Conversely, it is possible that lowered burst will simply make burst-capable classes more important than ever. If you can't drop anyone without a heatwave pyro on them, then heatwave pyros become the most valuable players. Which classes and specs will be the most burst-capable without relying on crits?

    Lots to think about here, should be an interesting new environment. I'm guessing Trion got tired of reading the one-shot complaints from R1s. But considering the effect of the red-ball nerf isn't even clear yet, the pace of PvP combat could drop drastically from the boom-headshot pace we currently have. Might be a whole new game!
    Last edited by Stay; 06-11-2011 at 01:44 PM.

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    Banned Bunzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stay View Post
    This probably won't work as a thread, because crying/raging has always been the single-minded purpose of this forum. But perhaps there are a few here who would like to talk about strategy and adapting to new changes. Maybe we will even be able to find each other's posts amidst the blinding monsoon of tears that comprises the rest of the forum.

    So, interesting topics:

    - What will be the effect of narrowing the gap between R1 and R6?
    Will this make premade teams of R6s less important? Universal valor should make it easier (some would say "possible") for healers to keep low-rank players alive. Without low-rank puggies getting globaled at the start of every fight, fights will last longer and have more participants in them. This may make AoE-centric specs more worthwhile, because there will be more people around to AoE. Will mana-draining return to prominence in longer, less-bursty fights?

    It will also likely place a premium on immunities or shields which allow players to interact with objectives while under attack. When wiping the enemy team is more difficult, taking the objective without needing to wipe them is more useful. For example, purifier spec clerics are currently the least common/effective of the 3 cleric healing specs in PvP. This could change, and potentially drastically.


    - How will players adapt to the gutting of crit as a useful PvP stat?
    Which specs will benefit and which will suffer? Do you plan to still count crit rating as valuable, or attempt to avoid it entirely? PvP trees featuring -15% chance to be crit will certainly become less useful when crits are so much less threatening. This may swing some classes and specs towards avoiding their PvP tree entirely. With the stat distribution on PvP gear the same at every tier, will the slots with lots of crit become skippable? Has anyone gotten a head start on finding comprable PvE or crafted gear for those slots, without crit on it?

    - How will the melee/ranged/healer dynamic change?
    Lowered burst will de-emphasize the current dominance of ranged DPS, as melee will have more time to close gaps and healers will have more time to keep people alive. Less cabability to disintigrate opponents before they can be healed will also increase the importance of healing debuffs, which favors melee as well. What are the chances that warriors will become the dominant DPS? Will melee rogues be durable enough to come out of stealth into the thick of a fight?

    It seems clear that lowered burst will stress the importance of healers, as it will be more difficult to burn people down through heals. Will dropping enemies be so difficult that fights last long enough for clerics to run out of mana? If so, will bards and chloros be competitive with clerics for healing, or even outshine them? Conversely, it is possible that lowered burst will simply make burst-capable classes more important than ever. If you can't drop anyone without a heatwave pyro on them, then heatwave pyros become the most valuable players. Which classes and specs will be the most burst-capable without relying on crits?

    Lots to think about here, should be an interesting new environment. I'm guessing Trion got tired of reading the one-shot complaints from R1s. But considering the effect of the red-ball nerf isn't even clear yet, the pace of PvP combat could drop drastically from the boom-headshot pace we currently have. Might be a whole new game!
    This is your new game;

    Clerics own all.
    Rogues own warriors and mages.
    Warrios own mages.
    Mages own nothing.

  3. #3
    Ascendant Stay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunzy View Post
    This is your new game;

    Clerics own all.
    Rogues own warriors and mages.
    Warrios own mages.
    Mages own nothing.
    At least you read it. Or part of it anyway. I guess reading then crying is better than I was expecting.

    What about the chloro and dominator changes? Those are mage specs. What is going to suck about them and how do you know?

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    Ascendant Stay's Avatar
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    * Deny: Reduced cooldown to 10 seconds,
    * Mental Shock: Reduced cooldown to 20 seconds.
    * Empowered Presence: Now increases the radius of your Arresting and Reflective Presence by 2-6 meters. Increases the chance for your Reflective Presence to reflect spells by 5-15%. Gives Arresting Presence a 33-100% chance to proc an interrupt on up to 10 targets within range, each second.

    These sound really, really good. Arresting Presence sounds like it's just going to stop anyone from casting anything, whether or not they have DR, as long as you have charge for it.

    And the new 51 dom ability reads like it's just going to suck all the power, energy, and mana out of an entire group of people. Every bit of it. That's sick if it does in fact work that way. Even the single-target version would likely suck away 33-50% of people's mana bars and all their power/energy if you hit a rogue (fast GCD) with it in the middle of a group.
    Last edited by Stay; 06-11-2011 at 02:21 PM.

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    Banned Bunzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stay View Post
    What about the chloro and dominator changes? Those are mage specs. What is going to suck about them and how do you know?
    Chloros can no longer solo heal 5 mans. They have turned us into support heals like a bard.

    wtf is that!?

  6. #6
    Shadowlander
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    the strength (main strength) in premades is that you can get a good composition and you're probably on vent and can just be like target blah and spike people down one by one, or organize a decent sized group push to whereever, while the pugs are always to some extent randomly doing stuff


    this won't be fixed no matter what kind of balancing they do, unless it is like in guild wars where they split the pvp into random and arranged teams, so that pugs will always face pugs and premades other premades


    thats the fairest way but they are probably too lazy

  7. #7
    Shield of Telara Znick's Avatar
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    To the OP.

    I really had trouble reading your post... so much I'm disturbed. There was no blanket statement about something you've not tried, nor did you threaten to leave the game. You didn't make any "fail" reference, nor did you accuse a company that sold over 1,000,000 units in a 30 day period of not having any clue about the gaming business.

    I can't tell if you're a total troll, the most sarcastic bugger on the planet, or just need to LTP. In any of the cases, the post is too logical to read, and should be closed. We all know that the changes will ruin the game, cause all but the 47 relatives of Trion execs who play to cancel, and likely ruin the Chicago Cubs chance of winning the World Series this year.

    Please stop. Please.

    Z

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    Soulwalker
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    /quit bye bye, guild wars 2 please come quickly your our only hope. PVP isnt the same anymore.

  9. #9
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    It's pretty hard to have a discussion with an OP who doesn't even know what the current metagame is. It's dominated by champion trains supported by Wardens, not ranged DPS.

    What 1.3 will bring is a baffling buff to the already immense impact of healers in warfronts characterized by both higher survivability for everyone and allegedly higher healing values.

    My prediction is that the metagame won't change. It'll still be dominated by Champion trains supported by Wardens, only more so because no one will be able to kill the Wardens without a co-ordinated 6-7 man effort.

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    Telaran
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    ATM with the new valor changes I forsee long fights that end when healers run out of mana in 1.3

    The valor changes are pretty big and just make healing more effective.

    Not sure how the other classes are going to be affected but for mages I think pyro and sc are going to be much less popular do to the fact that crit damage is reduced, and pyro/sc both had damage nerfs.

    On the plus side it seems like chloro will be much better for pvp since LGV/LGB dont affect gcd and have a 10sec cd making them atleast slightly better vs purge spammers.

    Expecting chloro / dom to be more popular now especially since mana drain will probably be needed to kill clerics
    Last edited by Repulse; 06-11-2011 at 05:11 PM.

  11. #11
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    void knight and other mana drain builds might be fun.
    Griefing - This refers to players who do not play the game as it was intended, but instead seek to harass other players as their main focal point. This includes stalking or attempting to kill another player's character that has no means of recourse within the game. To "grief" simply means that you are trying to negatively impact the game play experience of another player. A player on the opposite faction cannot be griefed. It is perfectly acceptable to take actions in order to get a player of the opposite faction killed using whatever means possible.

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    Ascendant Stay's Avatar
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    It may vary by cluster, but in my cluster mages (usually pyros) are disproportionately top damage, top KBs, and get numbers on their heads. We have some very dangerous MM rogues as well. About half of the high-rank clerics play as ranged DPS and the other half as warden or warden/sentinel. If warriors are dominating another cluster, that is a tribute to balance, because in mine there are the fewest effective warriors of any class.

    You may be theorycrafting a metagame where everyone is a high-rank premade and chooses their own entire team. I agree that healbotted warriors would likely come out on top in such a situation. However, the "metagame" in rift includes a high amount of randomness of teammates and opponents. In that environment most targets are low-valor and not focus-healed, and ranged spike DPS has shined. Or maybe your cluster just has fewer low-valor pickup players and more healers than mine.

    Anyway, looking again at the dominator changes, I could see that becoming the next FotM spec quite quickly. They haven't lost mana wrench, and have gained another, far-more-effective mana drain. With lower burst and longer battles, mana drain will already become a more viable strategy even without the dom changes. With them, it may become a dominant (no pun intended) strategy.

    Sadly, I think that it is nerf-bait if it ever does become a dominant FotM spec. The CC changes went in to reflect complaints that people spent too much time unable to use their abilities. For two out of the four classes, being drained is even worse than being frequently CCed. Like a CC-theme class, a drain-theme class is an archtype that may or may not be good gameplay for the player, but is assuredly a gameplay-wrecker for his opponents. Complaints will pile up quickly.

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    Shield of Telara Znick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neuts View Post
    It's pretty hard to have a discussion with an OP who doesn't even know what the current metagame is. It's dominated by champion trains supported by Wardens, not ranged DPS.
    If this were true, there wouldn't be half of the crying there currently is. But alas. It's not.

    Ranged DPS is what all the whining is about, "he 1-shot me", ""MM is OP". Does this guy even read/play?

    Z

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    Yo stay, i'll try to asnwer but pretty drunk. I used to love dom/chloro and looks like it will be fun again. However, I think this update is horrible and I think you will agree when think about it. Clerics when there are more than 1 are very very very hard to kill outside of several dom/chloros lol. Not complaining here as I've played many mmo's and anyone with both experience and a brain knows that clerics are always slightly op in any successful pvp mmo. This is due to obvious reasons that I don't need to go into. The question is whether it is too much or not too much.

    As it is now that answer can go either way. However, if you make all ppl harder to kill then it really does seem like there will be problems relating to the number of clerics in wfs since wfs are set up the way they are. It might not be a problem with cleric itself as much as with how the wfs are set up.

    Also, crits are fun. I switch between sin,ranger,mage as my first mains with the other 2 as alts in games so i love crits. with the crit nerf I won't have near as much fun. I love rolling for gear in raids even though it is a stupid way to give raid loot so maybe my love of crits is wrong however I will be bored with that lol.

    You seem to understand pvp pretty well and so I think you will agree that with the way wfs are set up 1.3 will be pretty bad. I am also lvl'n a cleric btw so its not really a class thing as idc which of the 4 I play in this game but I do like diversity and fun fights. I have always hated bg and the other 3 when turtling becomes the strat due to lack of fun that i have (whether its my side or not doing the turtling) and therefore I am very sad about 1.3.

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    Ascendant Stay's Avatar
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    Hi Raika You posted a couple times in another thread I made but I was PvPing. Instant queues on our side these days = no time to read forums between games

    I am not smart enough to figure out whether 1.3 will be fun or not. You see complaints about dying too fast, and you see complaints about enemies being too hard to kill. So I think there is no combat pace that will satisfy everyone. I do think it will be slower, and that is obviously their intention. I just can't tell whether a slower pace will be more or less fun. For what it's worth, I did the PvP in LOTRO for a month or two, where it took 4 or 5 people together 15 seconds or more to bring down a single target and 1v1s could last a minute or more even without heals. And that combat was quite enjoyable, so I think there is nothing necessarily unfun about long lifespans and low damage.

    People in this forum make it out to be a class balance issue, but people in this forum make everything out to be a class balance issue. This is like the "whine about class balance" forum. Three of the four classes can heal, and the fourth has the most effective PvP tank specs. So all of them can participate effectively if heal-and-tank is the name of the game in 1.3. Right now, blow-stuff-up-from-range is the name of the game, and warriors don't get to play. So I guess in that regard it might actually become more balanced.

    I worry a bit that neither team in whitefall will be able to kill the other team's carrier. Turtling games could become even more common than they already are. That's not fun. On the other hand, black garden games with less death could easily be more fun than the current version. Right now, one team wipes at the start and never really recovers in about half the games. If it was harder to wipe, you might have more of a back-and-forth flow and the focusing on the fang would be more important. Instead of just AoEing everyone to death then picking it up at your leisure while the enemy team stands on top of the hill and complains about pyros in /yell. Those aren't fun games and could easily be better in 1.3.

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