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Thread: PvP points should be merit based

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    Plane Touched
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    Default PvP points should be merit based

    Prestige and Valor obtained should be based on merit instead of equally divided among the warfront. The current system that has been in place since launch favors people who do next to nothing in warfronts when people who heal/damage/kill people receive the same as rewards.

    There are already too numerous players who have AFK'd themselves up to rank 6 showing the current flaw in the system, but it is not too late to change it so that those who do the work reap the rewards for doing so.


    Warhammer for all it's faults got that portion of the game right, when we did scenarios in that game healers were rewarded for healing and those of us that did all the damage got the most renown.

  2. #2
    RIFT Guide Writer Flaymar's Avatar
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    +1 for this, it is very frustrating.

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    Ascendant VirusDancer's Avatar
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    What would you consider worthy of merit? Is it just DPS/Heals? What about support? Buff, debuff, purges, etc? How about the guy that suicide charges the enemy, attempting to draw them to one side of the map so the objective runner can go the other way?

    Should the Pyro or Sin that is farming DPS/KBs nowhere near any objective...rack up on those merit based rewards?
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    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    What would you consider worthy of merit? Is it just DPS/Heals? What about support? Buff, debuff, purges, etc? How about the guy that suicide charges the enemy, attempting to draw them to one side of the map so the objective runner can go the other way?

    Should the Pyro or Sin that is farming DPS/KBs nowhere near any objective...rack up on those merit based rewards?
    Yes.

    ........

  5. #5
    Rift Disciple Estil's Avatar
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    You can create a formula.

    Actions + result = merit.

    Buff shears are an action = contribution to target dying just if they were DPSing it.

    Games are real simple realy. They can be manipulated to do whatever the coder tells them to do.
    "ToA Will not have a significant impact on RvR."

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    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    What would you consider worthy of merit? Is it just DPS/Heals? What about support? Buff, debuff, purges, etc? How about the guy that suicide charges the enemy, attempting to draw them to one side of the map so the objective runner can go the other way?

    Should the Pyro or Sin that is farming DPS/KBs nowhere near any objective...rack up on those merit based rewards?
    Last night is a perfect example of what is wrong with the current system. I did a port scion where I did 675k damage, and had 37 killing blows and made about 2400 favor. We had guys on our team that did 25k damage and did 0 killing blows and made the same 2400 favor. The truth is in a majority of warfronts, a select group of people allow the whole team to win, and those same players get the same amount of points as the people who do next to nothing.

    Warhammer got it right. Groups that queued together shared the points that the group made evenly. Players that queued up solo had to contribute either by healing or doing damage to get points.



    The current system still allows players who run bots to level just as fast, or faster even, as those who actively play. When everyone gets the same amount of rewards in a warfront regardless of personal output, players will continue to exploit the system.

  7. #7
    Champion of Telara xeshaka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Estil View Post
    You can create a formula.

    Actions + result = merit.

    Buff shears are an action = contribution to target dying just if they were DPSing it.

    Games are real simple realy. They can be manipulated to do whatever the coder tells them to do.
    so if I sit is spawn and create a macro to rebuff every second I should get lots of favor?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrifter View Post
    Last night is a perfect example of what is wrong with the current system. I did a port scion where I did 675k damage, and had 37 killing blows and made about 2400 favor. We had guys on our team that did 25k damage and did 0 killing blows and made the same 2400 favor. The truth is in a majority of warfronts, a select group of people allow the whole team to win, and those same players get the same amount of points as the people who do next to nothing.
    how do you know that guy that had 25k damage and 0 killing blows didn't help the warfront to win? DPS is not the only thing you need to win...
    Last edited by xeshaka; 06-14-2011 at 06:29 AM.
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    Rift Master -Sansa-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xeshaka View Post
    how do you know that guy that had 25k damage and 0 killing blows didn't help the warfront to win? DPS is not the only thing you need to win...
    Was thinking the same. Poor slob with the 25k damage might have been protecting a shard runner, running shards himself, or keeping those pesky melee types off the casters' backs. Really can't estimate contribution based soley on how much a player heals/dps's.

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    Plane Walker The Grixxitt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Sansa- View Post
    Was thinking the same. Poor slob with the 25k damage might have been protecting a shard runner, running shards himself, or keeping those pesky melee types off the casters' backs. Really can't estimate contribution based soley on how much a player heals/dps's.
    Same thoughts.

    OP should play a Dominator and see what overall contribution they can make that will never show up on a leaderboard.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrifter View Post
    Prestige and Valor obtained should be based on merit instead of equally divided among the warfront. The current system that has been in place since launch favors people who do next to nothing in warfronts when people who heal/damage/kill people receive the same as rewards.

    There are already too numerous players who have AFK'd themselves up to rank 6 showing the current flaw in the system, but it is not too late to change it so that those who do the work reap the rewards for doing so.

    Warhammer for all it's faults got that portion of the game right, when we did scenarios in that game healers were rewarded for healing and those of us that did all the damage got the most renown.
    Yeah, penalize people further with less gear who can't put out good damage. We need people to stay Rank 1-2 longer, since so many of them are quitting to find a game that's entry level PvP isn't totally horrid. We need the few that stay to remain gimp longer to balance it out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrifter View Post
    Prestige and Valor obtained should be based on merit instead of equally divided among the warfront. The current system that has been in place since launch favors people who do next to nothing in warfronts when people who heal/damage/kill people receive the same as rewards.

    There are already too numerous players who have AFK'd themselves up to rank 6 showing the current flaw in the system, but it is not too late to change it so that those who do the work reap the rewards for doing so.


    Warhammer for all it's faults got that portion of the game right, when we did scenarios in that game healers were rewarded for healing and those of us that did all the damage got the most renown.
    The problem is the scoreboard.

    They should entirely remove the score board and reward the winners.

    This way people will stop trying to flex useless heal and dps numbers and actually focus on the objective and winning the match.

  12. #12
    Plane Walker Mlaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrifter View Post
    Last night is a perfect example of what is wrong with the current system. I did a port scion where I did 675k damage, and had 37 killing blows and made about 2400 favor. We had guys on our team that did 25k damage and did 0 killing blows and made the same 2400 favor. The truth is in a majority of warfronts, a select group of people allow the whole team to win, and those same players get the same amount of points as the people who do next to nothing.
    And all the while those guys with only 25k damage 0 killing blows were firing debuff after debuff on the opponent which causes little to no damage therefore allowing you to gain your 675k dmg 37 killing blows sheesh its like you think you were doing everything and nobody else was involved!! Wake up numbers on the end of the sheet are no indication to what people have actually done during the battle
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Estil View Post
    You can create a formula.

    Actions + result = merit.

    Buff shears are an action = contribution to target dying just if they were DPSing it.

    Games are real simple realy. They can be manipulated to do whatever the coder tells them to do.
    Spoken like someone with zero coding experience.
    First of all, the sensible thing would be to multiply, rather than add. Otherwise, twice as much spam still beats being really really useful half the time.
    Second of all, the tricky part in this equation is determining the "result" variable, and there's nothing simple about it.
    For instance, a root spell cast on a melee chasing a carrier in WF may have substantial impact, and should be generously rewarded through the "result"-variable. A root spell cast on a ranged DPS overlooking Codex has zero impact, and should be considered ability-spam, awarding 0 "result-points".
    Instant-cast spam is really really useful if you're deliberately chain-interrupting someone trying to cap something, and deserves a lot of result points. It's really really useless if you're tickling a tank-specced dude with a pocket healer.
    An assassin who spends 80% of his time hiding, contributing nothing but KB's on the opponents main healer might be the prime reason the champion with his pocket healer is successfully slaughtering everyone else.

  14. #14
    Sword of Telara
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    I took a break from PvP for about a month, and it seems they've changed it. It is more merit based in the sense you have to be closer to the action to get prestige. It also seems to scale favor with the amount of damage and healing you do. I've noticed there's not a great big difference between the favor people get on the winning and losing team. Of course some, but not that huge. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think they've changed it in the last month or two.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mlaar View Post
    And all the while those guys with only 25k damage 0 killing blows were firing debuff after debuff on the opponent which causes little to no damage therefore allowing you to gain your 675k dmg 37 killing blows sheesh its like you think you were doing everything and nobody else was involved!! Wake up numbers on the end of the sheet are no indication to what people have actually done during the battle
    Ya... I'm sure that is what low end players are doing. Debuffing in PvP. I'm of the mindset that PvPing should get you points instead of PvEing or standing around and benefiting from others hard work. The current system is giving me flashbacks of playing Alterac Valley in WoW where a select handful did all the work for a team to win.

    Now if the guys that are on the low end of healing, caps, damage, killing blows, holding the fang. sourcestone returns/captures, etc... are debuffing them that is fine. But I'm more inclined to think that they are simply picking up crates in scion and turning them in. Which does nothing to help the team.


    Estil got it right. They need to change the way coding for points works. Capping/defending points, capturing/returning sourcestones, holding the fang, healing, doing damage, killing blows, etc... Should all be factors in how favor is obtained. If players debuff or play a dominator and drain mana, squirrel, etc.. actions such as those should grant a certain amount of favor per dead character. Those are all the things that warhammer did.

    These are PvP warfronts. The idea is to PvP or contribute to objectives that allow your team to win a warfront. There are simply too many players who waste space in warfronts and reap the benefits of others who actually PvP in them.

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