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Thread: PvP is broken.

  1. #1
    Shadowlander
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    Default PvP is broken.

    Im not going to make this thread to QQ and release all my rage from doing WFs today. Im simply here to reiterate an honest fact.

    PvP is broken in Rift.

    Warfronts are repetitive and nothing but AoE fests. I think this might be because healers are too powerful in PvP and doing single target damage as a mage isnt as helpful as AoEing the Healer/Dps.

    Please consider implementing an arena type of PvP to this game, not because I want to see this game be more like WoW, but because it will actually serve as a frame to balances the classes around. I think balance is the key to making PvP fun in this game. That is all.

    Trolls you can go ahead and flame on.

  2. #2
    RIFT Guide Writer Flaymar's Avatar
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    PvP is a hard thing to "Fix" in the current setup.

    Every day its these threads, and i'll say what i always do, until there is a system that can be altered without effecting the other there will always be issues. For example, there is a nerf comming to mage pvp burst in 1.3, however this will impact PvE dps also making stormcaller still the only viable mage spec.

  3. #3
    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaymar View Post
    PvP is a hard thing to "Fix" in the current setup.

    Every day its these threads, and i'll say what i always do, until there is a system that can be altered without effecting the other there will always be issues. For example, there is a nerf comming to mage pvp burst in 1.3, however this will impact PvE dps also making stormcaller still the only viable mage spec.
    Yeah I understand what you mean, but you are pretty much saying that PvP will never get balanced in this game because the soul system shares its skills with PvE and PvP. I still have faith that have an arena type of PvP action will still be able to have some sort of balance with PvP while not completely harming PvE. I can't say for sure this is true, but its worth a try.

  4. #4
    Ascendant Stigas's Avatar
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    Trion set themselves up for failure. Setting the expectation that you would be able to freely pick your soul combinations and points and still "have fun" (having fun = doing well to everyone but masochists) was a terrible idea.

    There should be DPS trees, healing trees, support trees. None of the CC abilities in those trees should work in PvP. Your PvP soul should house ALL of the defensive tools you would need to perform in PvP.

    That's how you balance PvP and PvE without taking a steaming dump on the other. Balance all the damage trees so they have the same damage potential. Same with the Healing. Give the support trees a bit of defensive utility for the people just entering the PvP scene so they stand a chance, and enough buff/utility for it to be worthwhile.
    Last edited by Stigas; 06-08-2011 at 08:12 PM.
    Stigas - 50 Defiant Mage - Rank 5
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  5. #5
    Ascendant VirusDancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stigas View Post
    Trion set themselves up for failure. Setting the expectation that you would be able to freely pick your soul combinations and points and still "have fun" (having fun = doing well to everyone but masochists) was a terrible idea.
    This does not apply just to PvP though. Many people have harped on the number of Soul combinations available in Rift - yet, they do mention how few of them are actually viable in most situations.

    There should be DPS trees, healing trees, support trees. None of the CC abilities in those trees should work in PvP. Your PvP soul should house ALL of the defensive tools you would need to perform in PvP.
    A few things here:

    1) There are already DPS souls, healing souls, support souls, and tanking souls.
    2) Why should CC not work in PvP? It should just be a DPS spamfest?
    3) The PvP soul provides offensive/defensive options while facing player enemies. Could they be tweaked? Sure, look at the difference between Vindicator and Archmage. Look at the difference between Templar and Infiltrator.

    That's how you balance PvP and PvE without taking a steaming dump on the other. Balance all the damage trees so they have the same damage potential. Same with the Healing. Give the support trees a bit of defensive utility for the people just entering the PvP scene so they stand a chance, and enough buff/utility for it to be worthwhile.
    So you are saying that a Melee Rogue should do the same damage as a Ranged Cleric, a Bard should do the same healing as a Cleric...etc? Then why have all the souls, eh?

    DPS Class (you can choose whether you shoot fireballs out your arse or swing an axe twice the size of you, both will do the same damage) - Healing Class (does not matter if you pray to the Gods or play a flute, bro - it'll all be the same) - Support Class...buff us, you suck too much to do anything else. I'll pass. I like that there are four different callings - nine souls per calling - and we can have up to five roles. Are all of my builds the most efficient - the most viable? No, they're not...but I still have fun. The lack of fun might be a personal thing... different strokes for different folks and all that.

    As for the balance of PvE and PvP - as long as developers continue with the farce of PvE design they appear to love, then there never will be balance.

    I have an Elemental/Chloro/AM build that I use for farming lowbie dungeons, the occasional trip out into rep farming/dailies, and even to an extent in Scion.

    In Scion, I can tank 4+ lieutenants and even a mini-boss (w/the LTs) without breaking a sweat. I cannot tank more than 2 35 Elites in a dungeon without getting wtfpwnt. Against a single player, I would be slaughtered.

    So... 4-5 level 50 WF Elites, 2 35 Dungeon Elites, or not even a single player (well, tbh - if they're really bad, they would die).

    I could go with a Lock/Nec build and kill the player - but I would have a hard time with a single WF Elite much less the lowbie Dungeon Elite.

    I could go with a SC build and kill a bunch of players - and get completely slaughtered by any Elite.

    Games like Rift, WoW - follow some perverse progression for PvE. If you want to balance PvE and PvP, they need to go back to some ol' PnP RPG roots... the PvE should be more like PvP.
    Kincayd (1)* - Omeki (1) - Comma (2) - Bugeisha (2) - Malphesiel (3)
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electrical View Post
    Im not going to make this thread to QQ and release all my rage from doing WFs today. Im simply here to reiterate an honest fact.

    PvP is broken in Rift.

    Warfronts are repetitive and nothing but AoE fests. I think this might be because healers are too powerful in PvP and doing single target damage as a mage isnt as helpful as AoEing the Healer/Dps.

    Please consider implementing an arena type of PvP to this game, not because I want to see this game be more like WoW, but because it will actually serve as a frame to balances the classes around. I think balance is the key to making PvP fun in this game. That is all.

    Trolls you can go ahead and flame on.
    What warfront are you doing that is an AOE fest?

    Codex sure isn't... it's a stealth... stab... stab... immune... immune... immune... immune... fest.

    Whitefall is similar.... immune... immune... immune... run!

    Scion CAN be... because the nature of it has large chunks of the team huddled around static objectives... OK. Give one to the AOE mages.

    BG... if you stand in the middle in a clump, you're gonna get AOE'd. But most of the good teams I see are tanks backed by healers and a pyro or 2 to insta kill your ***. Very little AOE involved.

  7. #7
    Champion of Telara
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    Ive always liked the PvP in this game, but Im bored. It also doesnt help that I get butthurt by the fact that PvE gets so much more attention. I doubt I make it to the next patch or to whenever they decide to add to PvP. Maybe they never will.

  8. #8
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    Also remember, the very moment there is 2v2, 3v3, or 5v5 arenas, you will immediately see people complaining about the obvious advantages various classes and their soul combinations have over each other in such small team-size settings. And then comes the nerfs and changes where everybody can do everything equally. Then the canceled subscriptions.

    Ask at your own peril, my friend.

  9. #9
    Rift Chaser inaliz's Avatar
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    PvP is definitely not broken. I think you just need more practice.

  10. #10
    Champion Marnos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by inaliz View Post
    PvP is definitely not broken. I think you just need more practice.
    I disagree with this statement, on the pretense that the difference in power of pvp gear after 50 is too great for one bracket and has created a monopoly in my cluster. I leveled into a clear environment of the opposing faction being heavy in numbers of p6 whereas my faction is not. Because the difference in power from the higher tiers to lower tiers is so great, a cycle of progression presents itself. The opposition continues to win matches virtually uncontested, unnaturally increasing the rate at which their lower tiered 50s rank up and effectively governing the rate at which my faction ranks up. Now that my group of friends I have made and use vent with have climbed up to p2, using our best efforts we can scrape out ties and a very rare win against the consistent enemy with a better arsenal. We understand strategic play, tactics, situational builds and coordination. I actively hunt the enemy in pve for the occasional prestige but they are rarely out in the pvp area on my server. I understand that the ranks are a different representation of time put in and leveling after 50, but the structure for rewards in the warfronts has allowed this monopoly to mature and flourish.

    ~Regards,

    Lion of Kaleida

  11. #11
    Ascendant Stigas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VirusDancer View Post
    A few things here:

    1) There are already DPS souls, healing souls, support souls, and tanking souls.
    2) Why should CC not work in PvP? It should just be a DPS spamfest?
    3) The PvP soul provides offensive/defensive options while facing player enemies. Could they be tweaked? Sure, look at the difference between Vindicator and Archmage. Look at the difference between Templar and Infiltrator.
    When I mentioned the PvP soul being where all your PvP defensive utility was housed, I meant that the PvP souls would have to be attractive for the classes (Fix Templar/Vindicator), and by defensive utility, I would include CC in there.


    So you are saying that a Melee Rogue should do the same damage as a Ranged Cleric, a Bard should do the same healing as a Cleric...etc? Then why have all the souls, eh?
    Why have any of the souls to begin with, if there will always be a clear cut winner? You should not be at a deficit for picking a Cleric because you like the Cleric toolbox or playstyle.
    Stigas - 50 Defiant Mage - Rank 5
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electrical View Post
    PvP is broken in Rift.
    Your use of the word "broken" is broken.

    What's you're trying to say is that you don't find it enjoyable.

  13. #13
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    Its not broken its great. For me every pvp bracket has been similar in that I start out weak and can't do anything and then end up fairly competitive when I get to the top of the bracket. You just have to suck it up and find a way to play and have fun while being weaker than everyone until you level/gear up.

    Rather than Trion spending great amounts of time working on class balance (which is actually not too bad) I'd like to see some RvR type lakes or other PvP content. Perhaps fixing some of the bugs and so forth. If there is any problem with PvP its in those areas-oh and getting some indication that the target is immune to CC before you waste a CC CD on them would be nice, stuff like that.

    @Lion-yeah I noticed at the time you play our faction sux (and the enemy is very strong), but at other times of day I've been in plenty of winning groups. Its a great feeling being in a good team, getting healed, enemy healers/mages numbered and everyone focus firing. Even as a rank two Sin (and fairly mediocre PvPer) I can rack up the killing blows.

  14. #14
    Ascendant VirusDancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stigas View Post
    When I mentioned the PvP soul being where all your PvP defensive utility was housed, I meant that the PvP souls would have to be attractive for the classes (Fix Templar/Vindicator), and by defensive utility, I would include CC in there.
    I guess I disagree on CC - I think Trion went overboard with the supposed changes with 1.2...lol.

    As for the PvP Souls - they definitely need to be addressed and brought somewhat inline with each other. There is a world of difference between Archmage and Vindicator...Infiltrator and Templar. It is kind of funny, but if you squint and look at them the right way just for a moment:

    Vindicator - Tank.
    Templar - Heals.
    Archmage - Magical Ranged DPS.
    Infiltrator - Physical Ranged/Melee DPS.

    The PvP Souls are...are...PvE Souls!

    Why have any of the souls to begin with, if there will always be a clear cut winner? You should not be at a deficit for picking a Cleric because you like the Cleric toolbox or playstyle.
    Offense, Support, Defense...etc.

    At times, I wish MMO developers approached class balance as if they were creating characters in the HERO system. They would assign points to various abilities - the sum of those points would be the same for all classes. Those that had additional support/defense/etc...would thus have less offense than one that did not. The more offense a class had, the less it would have of the rest. With the 1.1 changes to Pyro...lol, they completely blew my mind - the Soul was nerfbait prior to 1.1, yet they buffed it offensively and defensively.

    So would the particular Cleric necessarily do as much damage as the Rogue? Only if the Rogue was able to do everything else the Cleric does as well. But it does not work that way...really should not. Still, in the end - they should be able to be balanced as a whole. Does that mean X Cleric build sporting the same level of gear/rank as Y Rogue build should come down to a matter of skill? No...because we have options in how we build our toons - meaning some will be more powerful and some will mean a quick trip to do a respec, lol.
    Kincayd (1)* - Omeki (1) - Comma (2) - Bugeisha (2) - Malphesiel (3)
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  15. #15
    Plane Walker Tisch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by inaliz View Post
    PvP is definitely not broken. I think you just need more practice.
    coming from a person who would use any type of exploit to win
    And the little Warrior said to the little Mage "One day I'm going to grow up to be a fierce dual wielding Paragon and people will run in fear because I'll be so Intimidating in Battle" The Mage looked at the little Warrior and said "Ya well, I'm going to be a Pyromancer" and that was that.
    \(Q_Q)/ <---sad paragon

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