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Thread: The asymmetry of valor and its effects on healing (mostly about Chloros)

  1. #1
    Shadowlander
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    Default The asymmetry of valor and its effects on healing (mostly about Chloros)

    Going to keep this as short as possible:

    1) valor decreases dmg taken
    2) direct target healing still scales with SP
    3) dmg done by chloro is reduced by valor and by consequence so is their healing

    Now, with these mechanics in place, the higher prestige rank goes, the more marginalized the chloro becomes relative to the cleric. A cleric is simply a better healer, because it is 1) more survivable at higher prestige ranks 2) its heals are unaffected (get slightly better).

    Now, the first knee-jerk responses will be: silence/stun/interrupt/healing debuff = dead cleric. Every one of these affects a chloro to the same extent, if not more so, than the cleric, because all outgoing heals require a 2-2.5s cast besides the 2 on a 10s-15s cooldown. Most cleric heals are instant, so chloros get interrupted more. Everything else applies 1:1

    Valor reduces the amount of damage that a chloro does, and healing is reduced by the same factor. At R6 thats ~30% mitigation of damage. Imagine you had fel-blades on nearly 100% of the time (30% reduc < 50% reduc but the idea is still there)

    Further, and more sadly, is that despite all this, LGV is dispellable. Nothing defines a class more. Its a hyperbolic but stunningly accurate comparison to argue disarm should take off both bow and sword and they get put back in the bag, and cannot be requipped save the player finding that weapon and putting it back on 15s LATER. Its dispellable and on a cooldown. As much as you want to trash the class that does damage as well as healing (*cough* Justicar does the same with its convictions), completely removing the core mechanic of a class for that long is preposterous

    The dispellable LGV has no bearing on MM and eradicate. That **** is perfectly fine, and MM are not the only ones with a purge. ****, every calling has one to my knowledge (in one soul or another), but hey, isnt that half the problem? Passive undispellable, with no cooldown (keep the cooldown on synth for fairness sake).

    The easiest solution is to make valor calculate a mitigation after damage is applied, and have LGV translate healing on the pre-mitigated damage (a damage shield will use this logic -> (0 dmg [750 absorbed] still gives its healing effects to allies) and would bring chloro's in line with other healers.

    (^ on a personal note, I dont even necessarily believe this should happen, because its still a healing bias, just a uniform healing bias)

    Just remember that every time someone argues to keep Chloro's out of pvp, they are asking for one more mage to queue up as a pyro.

  2. #2
    Rift Master
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    No one's responding because you're 100% right. I imagine Trion knows it, too. Expect solutions to these problems in 1.3, 1.4 at the latest.

  3. #3
    Ascendant
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    All of which is a smaller problem than purges eating chloro mechanics.

    Though still a real issue.
    Raelyn <The Granite Guard> R40 Warrior @ Seastone
    Tomoka <The Granite Guard> R40 Cleric @ Seastone

  4. #4
    Telaran
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    >,,,,,,,> you sir are a genius... I just wish every mage would spec a chloro instead of a pyro.

  5. #5
    Champion of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by FaulkYou View Post
    Going to keep this as short as possible:

    1) valor decreases dmg taken
    2) direct target healing still scales with SP
    3) dmg done by chloro is reduced by valor and by consequence so is their healing

    Now, with these mechanics in place, the higher prestige rank goes, the more marginalized the chloro becomes relative to the cleric. A cleric is simply a better healer, because it is 1) more survivable at higher prestige ranks 2) its heals are unaffected (get slightly better).

    Now, the first knee-jerk responses will be: silence/stun/interrupt/healing debuff = dead cleric. Every one of these affects a chloro to the same extent, if not more so, than the cleric, because all outgoing heals require a 2-2.5s cast besides the 2 on a 10s-15s cooldown. Most cleric heals are instant, so chloros get interrupted more. Everything else applies 1:1

    Valor reduces the amount of damage that a chloro does, and healing is reduced by the same factor. At R6 thats ~30% mitigation of damage. Imagine you had fel-blades on nearly 100% of the time (30% reduc < 50% reduc but the idea is still there)

    Further, and more sadly, is that despite all this, LGV is dispellable. Nothing defines a class more. Its a hyperbolic but stunningly accurate comparison to argue disarm should take off both bow and sword and they get put back in the bag, and cannot be requipped save the player finding that weapon and putting it back on 15s LATER. Its dispellable and on a cooldown. As much as you want to trash the class that does damage as well as healing (*cough* Justicar does the same with its convictions), completely removing the core mechanic of a class for that long is preposterous

    The dispellable LGV has no bearing on MM and eradicate. That **** is perfectly fine, and MM are not the only ones with a purge. ****, every calling has one to my knowledge (in one soul or another), but hey, isnt that half the problem? Passive undispellable, with no cooldown (keep the cooldown on synth for fairness sake).

    The easiest solution is to make valor calculate a mitigation after damage is applied, and have LGV translate healing on the pre-mitigated damage (a damage shield will use this logic -> (0 dmg [750 absorbed] still gives its healing effects to allies) and would bring chloro's in line with other healers.

    (^ on a personal note, I dont even necessarily believe this should happen, because its still a healing bias, just a uniform healing bias)

    Just remember that every time someone argues to keep Chloro's out of pvp, they are asking for one more mage to queue up as a pyro.
    Yeah, I don't think you'll find many of us disagreeing. Hopefully it will get looked at sooner rather than later.

  6. #6
    Rift Disciple
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    i think its funny cause ppl always say trion is aware of the problem. why wouldnt they just hotfix it then.

  7. #7
    General of Telara Doktor_Ljubavi's Avatar
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    Not trying to overshadow your post, but same stuff applies to Cadence healing. Mostly why you see less and less full on bards as PvP gear becomes more common.
    http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv43/Unholiologist/fictionsaysninjaassassin.jpg

  8. #8
    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor_Ljubavi View Post
    Not trying to overshadow your post, but same stuff applies to Cadence healing. Mostly why you see less and less full on bards as PvP gear becomes more common.
    Heres the funny thing, because most people not playing your class (I play a mage, obviously) will blanket respond with "working as intended" and "L2Play", but you are exactly right about cadence. It should 100% work the same way as LGV. The idea about the "absorbed" damage would still work the same with it, amirite?

  9. #9
    Plane Walker Tisch's Avatar
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    just throwing this out there even if they werent to make LGV undispellable but make it do something like the sigils that pyros and such stand on were when they get out of it it remains on them for 15s. only do this for when LGV runs out the effect is carried on for 15s and maybe a screen message or something to boot? just a thought although i agree chloros should be able to always have LGV on at all times. i believe my way of the mountain is unable to be dispelled why can they not do that to chloros there such a sweet lookin class.
    And the little Warrior said to the little Mage "One day I'm going to grow up to be a fierce dual wielding Paragon and people will run in fear because I'll be so Intimidating in Battle" The Mage looked at the little Warrior and said "Ya well, I'm going to be a Pyromancer" and that was that.
    \(Q_Q)/ <---sad paragon

  10. #10
    Ascendant Stigas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doktor_Ljubavi View Post
    Not trying to overshadow your post, but same stuff applies to Cadence healing. Mostly why you see less and less full on bards as PvP gear becomes more common.
    I agree with this, and I of course agree with the OP (as a Chloro myself).

    The problems with non-Cleric healing stem from ignorance to the mechanics. These aren't just balance mishaps. This is a clear oversight from a development team who, judging by performance, has very little experience in successfully balancing PvP. They seem to get PvE down pat though, since I guess balancing a scripted encounter can only go wrong so many times before it goes right.

    Clerics will say "you aren't supposed to heal as well as a Cleric", and they'll cite some fake bs about how Mages are "traditionally dps" (despite the half dozen interviews/press releases of Hartsman saying Rift was different), and that we make up for our poor healing by dealing damage.

    We're screwed because we have Rogues/Warriors who see every Mage as a Pyro, so they're just fine stomping Chloros. Then we have Clerics who... well why would they complain? On top of that, the development team seems to think hotfixes should be reserved for LFG changes.
    Stigas - 50 Defiant Mage - Rank 5
    <PeeKay>
    US-Dayblind (PvP)

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