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Thread: Being EFFECTIVE in a warfront

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    Plane Touched Jural's Avatar
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    Default Being EFFECTIVE in a warfront

    How is it effective to gank a loner out in the middle of nowhere, when your team is losing because they just cannot take the Codex and one flag, or can't hold three flags?

    I wonder if PvP would be better if you only scored full kills or damage within 50 meters of a control point. It would require people to participate in the group goal, rather than just farting around for kills.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jural View Post
    How is it effective to gank a loner out in the middle of nowhere, when your team is losing because they just cannot take the Codex and one flag, or can't hold three flags?

    I wonder if PvP would be better if you only scored full kills or damage within 50 meters of a control point. It would require people to participate in the group goal, rather than just farting around for kills.
    Your strategy of "holding" codex and one more is flawed. So I'm going to assume your overall point is flawed. I don't know the specific issue or case that you are speaking of, but there should always be poeple trying to ninja flags that aren't being fought for. You accomplish 3 things by attempting to cap a flag. 1st you stop them from getting points. You force them to divide their force. and if you cap it you start earning points.
    Just saying that the strategy to stand pat once you have codex and another one is flawed and thats probably why you are mad.
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    Ascendant Trisian's Avatar
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    Playing with strangers can be a pain. Did you try chatting with the individual or maybe asking them to come help you?

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    Champion joanlewiswrites's Avatar
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    This has been discussed repeatedly.

    Killing some random guy in the middle of nowhere rewards the killer personally. This is purely a pugger phenomenon. Premade team members can't put themselves first to their own advantage unless and until it's obvious to everyone that they will lose the match no matter what they do, while puggers can't put their team first to their own advantage unless there's at least a slim glimmer of a chance that doing so will win the match.

    Everyone is going to do what is in their own personal interest as a rule. Most of those who attempt to do otherwise will quickly become frustrated.

    Your solution would work if and only if puggers continued to queue while getting little to no benefit from doing so. Because they cannot win the vast majority of matches against a well-coordinated vent team. It simply doesn't happen, and all exceptions merely prove the rule.

    It would be far better to simply not allow puggers to queue at all than to remove all incentive to queue, although both of these solutions, implemented now, will drive up the numbers of people quitting Rift.
    I'd be an advocate for separate queues for premade and non premade groups. Some people have said they were successful in all queuing separately at the exact same time. If this is true, there will still be rofl-stomps of non premade groups even if only 90% of the team gets in. Does anyone have an idea how they could/even would combat this?
    Posted on 03-07-2011 by Sinoxis

  5. #5
    Ascendant Stay's Avatar
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    I am a very effective player and win many more games than I lose. I move constantly between objectives, never stopping for longer than it takes to drink to full. If I encounter an enemy on my way to an objective, I kill him. If all the objectives are under control, I move towards the enemy respawn to cut off reinforcements. If an enemy manages to slip past to an objective behind me, I simply return to it and kill him easily. He will have no support because my team has been cutting off reinforcements in the front lines. I notice that the most effective players on both sides, the ones whose names you probably know, tend to play as I do: very, very aggressively.

    What I cannot understand is idiot teammates who think they are helping their team by standing still and doing nothing. I don't care where you are standing still and doing nothing, whether it is the respawn or an objective. You are standing still and doing nothing. This is nearly useless. Become more aggressive, engage the enemy wherever they are, and win more games. And I won't have to ignorelist you when you give /wf chat your stupid advice, over and over, in all caps.

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    Solution:

    -Grant double rewards for killing near objective.
    -Remove K/D from scoreboard.
    -Remove Damage/Healing from scoreboard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bowtie View Post
    Solution:

    -Grant double rewards for killing near objective.
    -Remove K/D from scoreboard.
    -Remove Damage/Healing from scoreboard.
    You are removing the e-peen factor from the game.

    It's the soul of any MMO.
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  8. #8
    Plane Touched Jural's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joanlewiswrites View Post
    This has been discussed repeatedly.

    ...Your solution would work if and only if puggers continued to queue while getting little to no benefit from doing so. Because they cannot win the vast majority of matches against a well-coordinated vent team. It simply doesn't happen, and all exceptions merely prove the rule.

    It would be far better to simply not allow puggers to queue at all than to remove all incentive to queue, although both of these solutions, implemented now, will drive up the numbers of people quitting Rift.
    Wow, good, insightful reply, Joan.

    Well, I can see it is a multi-facted problem.

    1) Some server "battlegroups" have such a low number of people doing warfronts that you must put Premades and PuGs together in meaningless matchs, because if you forced Premades to fight premades, there would be no matches at all in a reasonable queue time.

    2) The business model for the MMORPG is: "you are rewarded with perks and power for merely repeating simple actions, because ALL subscribers are able to do this, and will thus continue to pay the monthly subscription fee...which is, after all, the main goal for Trion."

    3) People who have spent several thousand hours in game clicking buttons need weaker "cannon fodder" in warfronts to crush, demonstrating their power. If you normalized armor in PvP, only those with a natural talent would be powerful...and the vast "average" crowd would no longer play.

  9. #9
    Plane Touched Jural's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trisian View Post
    Playing with strangers can be a pain. Did you try chatting with the individual or maybe asking them to come help you?
    Yes. Of course. Many times, until it became obvious that these particular people are not listening. I have played hundreds and hundreds of warfronts.

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    Ascendant ShalarLight's Avatar
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    2 non codex points secured, and having the 3rd non codex point assaulted is a great vantage point from which to assault the codex, flip the codex at this point and you are outscoring your opponents 6 to 0 and give them a forked choices of stopping the 9-0 ticks by recapping the non codex point, assaulting a different point (generally closer to your respawns) or rushing back into you for codex.
    Last edited by ShalarLight; 05-31-2011 at 08:35 AM.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rizaz View Post
    FYI Riftstalker running isn't even pve. .... You might as well call riftstalker running PVE.

  11. #11
    Plane Walker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stay View Post
    I am a very effective player and win many more games than I lose. I move constantly between objectives, never stopping for longer than it takes to drink to full. If I encounter an enemy on my way to an objective, I kill him. If all the objectives are under control, I move towards the enemy respawn to cut off reinforcements. If an enemy manages to slip past to an objective behind me, I simply return to it and kill him easily. He will have no support because my team has been cutting off reinforcements in the front lines. I notice that the most effective players on both sides, the ones whose names you probably know, tend to play as I do: very, very aggressively.

    What I cannot understand is idiot teammates who think they are helping their team by standing still and doing nothing. I don't care where you are standing still and doing nothing, whether it is the respawn or an objective. You are standing still and doing nothing. This is nearly useless. Become more aggressive, engage the enemy wherever they are, and win more games. And I won't have to ignorelist you when you give /wf chat your stupid advice, over and over, in all caps.
    Pretty much this.

    In all fairness though, there are times were baby-sitting an objective is necessary, however this is more an exception than a rule, and typically only plays a part in very close Codex matches.
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  12. #12
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    As long as there have been team games this has been discussed, thoughs who are team players, thoughs who are Premade-onnas, those with no skill who are just carried, those who do the carrying, those who are casual, those who are hardcore, those who solo, those who PUG, those who whine and those the majority you never hear a word from and in all honesty I have no clue what they think. Sadly its that last bunch who developers make games for but unless they speak up they're stuck making games for those who shout the loudest.


    I tend to find that the people who stand in the middle of nowhere killing random people (generally rogues) are pre-made players whos teamates arent online As a result they join a PUG, look down in contempt at their pitifull team mates (who arent teammates since they are just a random bunch of people) and procede to ignore every objective in the warfront and just get as much damage and kills as possable because they know PUG's cant win. Sometimes you will find them sitting AFK for half a match while they chat with friends in vent about how crap the current PUG is. At the end they tend to scream at their team about how useless everyone else is. Sometimes they will even use the resultant lose as a recruitment incentive for their guild/pre-made.

    Not every cookie cutter, carebear, pre-made, player is like that but play enough games you'll meet them.

    (funny every time i post i seem to get specifically targetted in warfronts by more and more people, oops. Its a shame though when someone on your own team shouts to his friends on the other side to target me because i upset him, some people cant take a joke

    I remember the days when the arguments weren't about how to stop PUG's playing it was about how to stop pre-mades creating unlevel playing fields to give everybody a chance. People and times change i guess.

  13. #13
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stay View Post

    What I cannot understand is idiot teammates who think they are helping their team by standing still and doing nothing. I don't care where you are standing still and doing nothing, whether it is the respawn or an objective. You are standing still and doing nothing. This is nearly useless. Become more aggressive, engage the enemy wherever they are, and win more games. And I won't have to ignorelist you when you give /wf chat your stupid advice, over and over, in all caps.
    Off-topic, but I disagree. By standing 'nearly useless' (at least by an objective) you keep people from ninja'ing the flag therefor you don't lose valuable points because of one person. If more than one person come, they can easily call out an inc and do their best to stall which, again, will give more time to award points.

    There's no need to call people whom defend 'idiots'.
    Last edited by Tavit; 05-31-2011 at 08:44 AM.

  14. #14
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    Default There are FAR MORE reasons to quit Rift than what you speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by joanlewiswrites View Post
    This has been discussed repeatedly.

    Killing some random guy in the middle of nowhere rewards the killer personally. This is purely a pugger phenomenon. Premade team members can't put themselves first to their own advantage unless and until it's obvious to everyone that they will lose the match no matter what they do, while puggers can't put their team first to their own advantage unless there's at least a slim glimmer of a chance that doing so will win the match.

    Everyone is going to do what is in their own personal interest as a rule. Most of those who attempt to do otherwise will quickly become frustrated.

    Your solution would work if and only if puggers continued to queue while getting little to no benefit from doing so. Because they cannot win the vast majority of matches against a well-coordinated vent team. It simply doesn't happen, and all exceptions merely prove the rule.

    It would be far better to simply not allow puggers to queue at all than to remove all incentive to queue, although both of these solutions, implemented now, will drive up the numbers of people quitting Rift.
    I will dismiss your comment about not letting puggers que for Warfront as it is a rediculous comment to make and pretty pompous.
    There are a myriad of reasons to quit Rift and I suppose many other MMO's. Let me run them down to you.
    1) The leveling system ( To easy to level which basically nullifies the need for accomplishing large portions of the game whether it be neglecting quests, warfronts, or dungeons.
    2) Crafting ( What is the point of having crafting in this game.) The leveling is so fast that nobody cares to buy crafted gear and once you get to level 50 no one wants level 300 master crafted gear becasue they will get better gear from warfronts and dungeons.
    3) World Events: (Epitome of BORING. Ever notice how no one is doing them after a couple of days. That is because redundancy is utterly boring and everyone know that.
    4) NO RVR gameplay ( What is the point of having a PVP server if there isn't any meaningful PVP. Again utter boredom around every turn. Its so bad that people just don't even bother to pvp in the open world.
    5) PUGS vs PREMADES IN WARFRONTS. ( There is no denying that Premades will win every Warfront and that poses a problem. This is the case in shooters as well. Until they force premades to play against other premades warfronts will continue to be problematic.
    6) Economy isn't player driven. This entire game plays like a trip to WALMART. Browse the various aisles (vendors in this case) and just buy what you want. I have a level 50 character with all Epic Gear and I didn't earn a single one of them in a dungeon or drop. I leterally bought every piece of equipment i wear with the exceptions of my weapons which I made myself.
    7) END GAME ( If your only goal in life is to relentlessly repeat the same dungeons over and over and over again just in hopes of getting some easter egg drop then I have to say that is a sad and futile existance. Why not just get rid of the entire game and just keep the dungeon raiding. That is all anyone seems to do so why not just cut to the chase.

  15. #15
    Ascendant Stay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tavit View Post
    Off-topic, but I disagree. By standing 'nearly useless' (at least by an objective) you keep people from ninja'ing the flag therefor you don't lose valuable points because of one person. If more than one person come, they can easily call out an inc and do their best to stall which, again, will give more time to award points.

    There's no need to call people whom defend 'idiots'.
    I meant to call the self-appointed team captains idiots, those who tell everyone else what to do in the warfront chat . . . but are wrong. People who defend are simply mistaken.

    The possibility that one person *might* ninja an objective is not worth sacrificing someone to prevent. That puts your team down one person already, just to prevent something that *might* happen (but probably won't). I allow that there are occasional games with lots of objective-ninjaing that do justify defense. But that is a rare exception; generally the team that wins the fights wins the game. And you do not win fights by having any of your troops standing still doing nothing.

    A ninja-capped objective is not threatening unless the bulk of the enemy force is nearby to support it. Otherwise it is easily recaptured. Spend your time making sure that the bulk of the enemy force is not nearby your objectives, and you will be much more effective. And yes this means you should be fighting enemies. Even if they are on the road, in the lake, at their own respawn . . . wherever the front line is.

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