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Thread: PvP and Healing, some light math.

  1. #1
    Plane Touched Noctrin's Avatar
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    Default PvP and Healing, some light math.

    I see a lot of misinformed people making some odd claims which i feel have very little ground to stand on.

    Let's take a look at some math:

    DMG Received = DamageIn*(1-mitigation) - healing

    As you can see, effectiveness is mediated by 3 variables:

    - Base damage
    - Mitigation
    - Healing

    All 3 are also mediated by gear.

    What this means, a well geared group will always have a MASSIVE advantage. Here's why:

    I will assume decent PvP + raid gear. T2 + R4ish gear.

    Typical rogue: 850dps
    Typical cleric: 800hps; 35% damage reduction from valor + spec.

    DMG in: (850*0.65) - 800 = -248 (healing)

    If the cleric is allowed to heal at full capacity, the rogue would not damage him at all.

    Assume 3 second stun, 50% healing debuf:

    (850 * 0.65) * 3 = ~1600 dmg during stun.
    552 - 400 = 152 dps thereafter.

    800 hps is the VERY high end of the single target healing potential in PvP. Almost impossible to attain with someone hitting you.

    Let's try that same example with a well geared rogue pulling 1000 dps.

    (1000*0.65)*3 = ~2000
    650-400 = 250 dps thereafter.

    On an average geared cleric with about 4.5k HP, he would die in 24 seconds vs first rogue and 12-13 vs the second.

    Let's look at a raid situation. Let's assume AoE HPs PER PERSON of 1 healer is about 450. This provides a DPS buffer of 450 dps negation per person per healer. Assume 3 healers:

    1350 HPS.

    Assume players x with 40% pvp damage mitigation, 2 players with 1000 dps attacking.

    2000 * 0.60 = 1200 dps - 1350 = -150. No damage being done.

    3 players attacking:

    3000*0.65 = 1800 dps - 1350 = 450 dps; AVG player would die in 10 seconds.

    Assume, same scenario with 50% heal debuff:

    2000 * 0.60 = 1200 - 775 = 420 = 12 seconds ( 2 players)

    1800 - 775 = 1025 = 4 seconds (3 players)

    Let's try the same math on a t1-2 player with say.. 15% mitigation

    2 Players:

    2000 * 0.85 = 1700 - 1350 = 350 dps = ~11 seconds lived (no heal debuff)
    1700 - 775 = 925 dps = 4.5 seconds (50% heal reduction)

    3 Players
    3000*0.85 = 2550 - 1350 = 1200 dps = 3.5 seconds (no heal debuff)
    2550 - 775 = 1775 dps = 2.5 seconds. (50% heal reduction)

    Assume rank 6 vs rogue that just hit 50 ~ 500 dps. 2 healers : 800 hps

    Rank 6 mitigation with talents: ~45%, crit rating reduction - 15% dps.

    Damage in: 500 (*0.85) *(0.55) = 233.75dps.

    Assuming 800 hps received it would take 5-6 of those people to KILL someone.
    Compare this to previous and you will see what the issue with pvp is.



    ----------------------------------------------

    What i'm getting at is this: Healing is NOT OP

    Valor + healing vs poor dps is op.

    If i were to factor aoe and spike damage it would ger very complicated and hard to explain. It's pretty bad as it is but I hope people understand that as fresh 50 with poor gear, you will stand NO CHANCE against someone with r4 and T2 gear being healed. A fresh 50 pyro will barely scratch a rank 6 cleric while a rank 6 pyro will probably kill him with ease.

    Every class in rank 6 receiving healing is OP. The mitigation is too high.
    Last edited by Noctrin; 05-31-2011 at 12:41 AM.
    Noktrin - Cleric - <vVv>

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  2. #2
    Plane Walker
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    What do you mean 35% mitigation from valor + spec?

    Right now I have 35% mitigation from valor alone (that's from full T3 PvP and both head and chest valor runes).

    Are you implying Justicar as spec? Because I don't use that in my regular build. I feel I can get away not using it and upping my healing potential instead

    PS: You said typical cleric, I suppose I'm not one. In order to go 35% you'll need max reputation with Scion plus all the T3 PvP gear of course.
    Last edited by Xasapis; 05-31-2011 at 12:44 AM.

  3. #3
    Plane Touched Noctrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xasapis View Post
    What do you mean 35% mitigation from valor + spec?

    Right now I have 35% mitigation from valor alone (that's from full T3 PvP and both head and chest valor runes).

    Are you implying Justicar as spec? Because I don't use that in my regular build. I feel I can get away not using it and upping my healing potential instead

    PS: You said typical cleric, I suppose I'm not one. In order to go 35% you'll need max reputation with Scion plus all the T3 PvP gear of course.
    exactly, I'm assuming average and not extremes. Clerics can get to 65% mitigation with procs, but u sacrifice a lot. I assume most healing clerics run about 40-45% mitigation.
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    Ascendant Puzzlebox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noctrin View Post
    exactly, I'm assuming average and not extremes. Clerics can get to 65% mitigation with procs, but u sacrifice a lot. I assume most healing clerics run about 40-45% mitigation.
    Don't forget that reduction is multiplicative.

  5. #5
    Plane Walker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puzzlebox View Post
    Don't forget that reduction is multiplicative.
    ... and has a cap, but I don't remember if it's 70% or 75%.

  6. #6
    Plane Touched Noctrin's Avatar
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    I'm trying to show a few numbers so people understand the power of healing debuffs, focus firing and gear. It will make the difference between being godly or horrible with the way pvp is designed.
    Noktrin - Cleric - <vVv>

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  7. #7
    Ascendant Vaine's Avatar
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    if you want an easy fix .... have the pvp souls passive add a healing debuff based on your valour.


    P.S. I really don't think it's necessary and I think healing is fine, though I am biased as I aleady have a 50% healing debuff which is passively applied.
    <The Unnamed> GSB 5/5 ROS 4/4 GP 4/4 DH 4/4 HK 10/11
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  8. #8
    Soulwalker
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    Default Here is some more math

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctrin View Post
    I see a lot of misinformed people making some odd claims which i feel have very little ground to stand on.

    Let's take a look at some math:

    DMG Received = DamageIn*(1-mitigation) - healing

    As you can see, effectiveness is mediated by 3 variables:

    - Base damage
    - Mitigation
    - Healing

    All 3 are also mediated by gear.

    What this means, a well geared group will always have a MASSIVE advantage. Here's why:

    I will assume decent PvP + raid gear. T2 + R4ish gear.

    Typical rogue: 850dps
    Typical cleric: 800hps; 35% damage reduction from valor + spec.

    DMG in: (850*0.65) - 800 = -248 (healing)

    If the cleric is allowed to heal at full capacity, the rogue would not damage him at all.

    Assume 3 second stun, 50% healing debuf:

    (850 * 0.65) * 3 = ~1600 dmg during stun.
    552 - 400 = 152 dps thereafter.

    800 hps is the VERY high end of the single target healing potential in PvP. Almost impossible to attain with someone hitting you.

    Let's try that same example with a well geared rogue pulling 1000 dps.

    (1000*0.65)*3 = ~2000
    650-400 = 250 dps thereafter.

    On an average geared cleric with about 4.5k HP, he would die in 24 seconds vs first rogue and 12-13 vs the second.

    Let's look at a raid situation. Let's assume AoE HPs PER PERSON of 1 healer is about 450. This provides a DPS buffer of 450 dps negation per person per healer. Assume 3 healers:

    1350 HPS.

    Assume players x with 40% pvp damage mitigation, 2 players with 1000 dps attacking.

    2000 * 0.60 = 1200 dps - 1350 = -150. No damage being done.

    3 players attacking:

    3000*0.65 = 1800 dps - 1350 = 450 dps; AVG player would die in 10 seconds.

    Assume, same scenario with 50% heal debuff:

    2000 * 0.60 = 1200 - 775 = 420 = 12 seconds ( 2 players)

    1800 - 775 = 1025 = 4 seconds (3 players)

    Let's try the same math on a t1-2 player with say.. 15% mitigation

    2 Players:

    2000 * 0.85 = 1700 - 1350 = 350 dps = ~11 seconds lived (no heal debuff)
    1700 - 775 = 925 dps = 4.5 seconds (50% heal reduction)

    3 Players
    3000*0.85 = 2550 - 1350 = 1200 dps = 3.5 seconds (no heal debuff)
    2550 - 775 = 1775 dps = 2.5 seconds. (50% heal reduction)

    Assume rank 6 vs rogue that just hit 50 ~ 500 dps. 2 healers : 800 hps

    Rank 6 mitigation with talents: ~45%, crit rating reduction - 15% dps.

    Damage in: 500 (*0.85) *(0.55) = 233.75dps.

    Assuming 800 hps received it would take 5-6 of those people to KILL someone.
    Compare this to previous and you will see what the issue with pvp is.



    ----------------------------------------------

    What i'm getting at is this: Healing is NOT OP

    Valor + healing vs poor dps is op.

    If i were to factor aoe and spike damage it would ger very complicated and hard to explain. It's pretty bad as it is but I hope people understand that as fresh 50 with poor gear, you will stand NO CHANCE against someone with r4 and T2 gear being healed. A fresh 50 pyro will barely scratch a rank 6 cleric while a rank 6 pyro will probably kill him with ease.

    Every class in rank 6 receiving healing is OP. The mitigation is too high.

    ONE p6 defiant healer goes to a flag in codex, 5 guard melee dps ranks p5-p6 enter flag. Rouges, riftblades,champs...the healers jumps around spamming insta heals , insta full heals, insta heals over times, 2 addidtional p5-6 guard dps enter flag area and engage, p6 defiant healer jumps around more typing a few comments like ' more dmg pls' all the while taking it like a champ while 5-7 p5-p6 melee dps guards layout the dmg and then after a few mins of this BS defiant backup shows up and with another healer. Not about skill or gear or pvp lvl, it is all about healers being absolutely broken in pvp at p6. PERIOD
    This happens everyday as soon as the p6 healers logg in, same situation over and over...they need to fix the healing in this game, no one puts our raid boss dmg so they dont need raidboss heals in wf's. Fix it or just admitt that the pvp in Rift is simply an afterthought to the pve, so all of us PVPers can move on ( prob will anyway when a non instanced pvp is released )
    Is this how the pvp was in WOW? is that why no one is screaming about the broken p6 healers? Alot fo games it took alot to kill healers and even in warhammer it took sometimes 2 toons, but no pvp game was a stupid as what we now have in wf's with p6 healing. Not Lineage2, Warhammer, Conan, Aion, etc etc
    Just fix the dam p6 healing, make it have a casting time, or make it so they can chose to heal themselves or the grp but not both or just nerf their dam valor or the dmg reduction buff but come one....it is really stupid at this point and needs to be looked at.

  9. #9
    Plane Touched Noctrin's Avatar
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    In order to fix PvP rank 6 damage mitigation needs to be toned down to 15% and healing would be fine. Also match up anything above rank 3-4 with people in the same tier.This would fix 90% of issues that currently exist.

    Yes, a rank 6 pvp cleric specced to take damage will be very hard to kill. That's all he'll do, but he'll do it well. I would personally never use that spec as I feel lowering mitigation and increasing aoe healing output by a lot would help my team way more.
    Last edited by Noctrin; 05-31-2011 at 01:02 AM.
    Noktrin - Cleric - <vVv>

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  10. #10
    Plane Touched Noctrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pegasusknight View Post
    ONE p6 defiant healer goes to a flag in codex, 5 guard melee dps ranks p5-p6 enter flag. Rouges, riftblades,champs...the healers jumps around spamming insta heals , insta full heals, insta heals over times, 2 addidtional p5-6 guard dps enter flag area and engage, p6 defiant healer jumps around more typing a few comments like ' more dmg pls' all the while taking it like a champ while 5-7 p5-p6 melee dps guards layout the dmg and then after a few mins of this BS defiant backup shows up and with another healer. Not about skill or gear or pvp lvl, it is all about healers being absolutely broken in pvp at p6. PERIOD
    This happens everyday as soon as the p6 healers logg in, same situation over and over...they need to fix the healing in this game, no one puts our raid boss dmg so they dont need raidboss heals in wf's. Fix it or just admitt that the pvp in Rift is simply an afterthought to the pve, so all of us PVPers can move on ( prob will anyway when a non instanced pvp is released )
    Is this how the pvp was in WOW? is that why no one is screaming about the broken p6 healers? Alot fo games it took alot to kill healers and even in warhammer it took sometimes 2 toons, but no pvp game was a stupid as what we now have in wf's with p6 healing. Not Lineage2, Warhammer, Conan, Aion, etc etc
    Just fix the dam p6 healing, make it have a casting time, or make it so they can chose to heal themselves or the grp but not both or just nerf their dam valor or the dmg reduction buff but come one....it is really stupid at this point and needs to be looked at.
    The spec you're talking about has 1 massive weakness. If you dispel that cleric he won't be able to build convictions and won't be able to use those instant heals, he'll have 1 on a 6 sec cd and that's it. Any aoe healing cleric with justicar does light attacks and can build up to 4 convictions which can be used to insta heal aoe or self. If the buff used to build those is dispelled, that cleric is suddenly useless until he realizes that happened and recasts it. From my experience, when you're running like an idiot from a train of people, with 10 debuffs, it's easy to miss that cavalier got dispelled until you try to heal and nothing happens.
    Noktrin - Cleric - <vVv>

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  11. #11
    Plane Touched
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    I enjoyed that post very much. It should explain a lot to people that don't understand why a P6 cleric can withstand 5-6 players. When people see 5-6 players on one person they think the damage should be way over the top that there is just no way that cleric can survive. When in reality if they were all fresh 50s it wouldn't even be equivalent dmg to a single P6 Warrior. If people realize the potential of a healing debuff/interrupts/cc/ff the idea of killing a cleric would be trivial.

    However, people go into a wf thinking, oh well if that guy is killing him, I'll go ahead and kill thise other guy over here. haha

  12. #12
    Plane Walker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pegasusknight View Post
    ONE p6 defiant healer goes to a flag in codex, 5 guard melee dps ranks p5-p6 enter flag. Rouges, riftblades,champs...the healers jumps around spamming insta heals , insta full heals, insta heals over times, 2 addidtional p5-6 guard dps enter flag area and engage, p6 defiant healer jumps around more typing a few comments like ' more dmg pls' all the while taking it like a champ while 5-7 p5-p6 melee dps guards layout the dmg and then after a few mins of this BS defiant backup shows up and with another healer. Not about skill or gear or pvp lvl, it is all about healers being absolutely broken in pvp at p6. PERIOD
    This happens everyday as soon as the p6 healers logg in, same situation over and over...they need to fix the healing in this game, no one puts our raid boss dmg so they dont need raidboss heals in wf's. Fix it or just admitt that the pvp in Rift is simply an afterthought to the pve, so all of us PVPers can move on ( prob will anyway when a non instanced pvp is released )
    Is this how the pvp was in WOW? is that why no one is screaming about the broken p6 healers? Alot fo games it took alot to kill healers and even in warhammer it took sometimes 2 toons, but no pvp game was a stupid as what we now have in wf's with p6 healing. Not Lineage2, Warhammer, Conan, Aion, etc etc
    Just fix the dam p6 healing, make it have a casting time, or make it so they can chose to heal themselves or the grp but not both or just nerf their dam valor or the dmg reduction buff but come one....it is really stupid at this point and needs to be looked at.
    You know, the difference between good groups and scrubs is that I die in 3 GCDs (5 secs) if I go vs 3 competent people, not 5. A marksman, a warrior that I didn't have time to check his build and a mage that I assume was a dominator was taking me down in less than 5 seconds, regardless of my high mitigation. They even purged my Overload, which generally keeps me alive for 8 seconds from people who don't bother with minor things like buff stripping.

    Next warfront with different people, I was picking the whitefall steppes shard and was running with half the team behind me trying unsuccessfully to kill me.

    I don't know what the point where you turn from being unable to kill me to own me bad, but please try to make educational comparisons with all things being equal. If you're not P6 fully geared (because P6 alone is not enough), then the base of comparison is flawed.
    Last edited by Xasapis; 05-31-2011 at 01:09 AM.

  13. #13
    Plane Touched Noctrin's Avatar
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    Yup, if i'm up against a good group i die within seconds of them seeing me. It's almost sad. I know i have a big number over my head and as soon as someone calls my number, i'll be dead within seconds.
    Noktrin - Cleric - <vVv>

    Too lazy to make a rift sig. Enjoy my Aion one

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