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Thread: PVP has never been the "point"

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    JDX
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    Default PVP has never been the "point"

    Something interesting crops up from time to time, a statement that I find queer.

    The so-called "PVPers" will at times make a statement that they are upset because "PVEers" get treated better, or that more time gets spent making content that appeals to "PVEers."

    The reason I find this strange is not that it isn't true. In fact, I imagine it is true. It's also irrelevant.


    Here's the thing - As MMOs have progressed, PVP has become more and more advanced, but in very few cases has PVP ever been treated as legitimate end-game content. It's always been something to do along the way. The reason? It doesn't advance the rest of the game at all.

    I'll get back to that.

    In all games where PVP has been truly great, it's been because PVPers have MADE or FOUND opportunities to PVP. They've made their own reasons. They never relied on the developers to give them a reason to PVP, and in my eyes the new trend of PVPers needing a reason to fight each other is the reason PVP is ****.

    You tell me there's no reason to PVP in open world? So what? Do it anyways. I remember games where there was no ranking system, no rewards, but you saw a certain name a-comin' and you got out the way because he created a true reputation for himself.


    And this is me getting back to what I said I would:

    New PVP content never creates new PVE opportunities, where-as new PVE invariably creates new PVP opportunities. Even Instances! You want to be a real *******? Go guard Greenscale. Instant PVP.
    [Admittedly, LFG limits this a little for Experts and stuff]
    All you have to do is be creative.



    Getting to my point, PVP has never been the point of MMOs. It was never supposed to be so segregated from PVE - it was all part of the same over-all experience. Rift has given opportunities for PVP that do require no thought, and do give rewards aside from glory and personal satisfaction.

    But y'know what? That's not why I go and talk **** to random flagged players before I throw my flag up and engage. And if it is why you're doing it, you're missing the point, and most of the fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JDX View Post
    Something interesting crops up from time to time, a statement that I find queer.

    The so-called "PVPers" will at times make a statement that they are upset because "PVEers" get treated better, or that more time gets spent making content that appeals to "PVEers."

    The reason I find this strange is not that it isn't true. In fact, I imagine it is true. It's also irrelevant.


    Here's the thing - As MMOs have progressed, PVP has become more and more advanced, but in very few cases has PVP ever been treated as legitimate end-game content. It's always been something to do along the way. The reason? It doesn't advance the rest of the game at all.

    I'll get back to that.

    In all games where PVP has been truly great, it's been because PVPers have MADE or FOUND opportunities to PVP. They've made their own reasons. They never relied on the developers to give them a reason to PVP, and in my eyes the new trend of PVPers needing a reason to fight each other is the reason PVP is ****.

    You tell me there's no reason to PVP in open world? So what? Do it anyways. I remember games where there was no ranking system, no rewards, but you saw a certain name a-comin' and you got out the way because he created a true reputation for himself.


    And this is me getting back to what I said I would:

    New PVP content never creates new PVE opportunities, where-as new PVE invariably creates new PVP opportunities. Even Instances! You want to be a real *******? Go guard Greenscale. Instant PVP.
    [Admittedly, LFG limits this a little for Experts and stuff]
    All you have to do is be creative.



    Getting to my point, PVP has never been the point of MMOs. It was never supposed to be so segregated from PVE - it was all part of the same over-all experience. Rift has given opportunities for PVP that do require no thought, and do give rewards aside from glory and personal satisfaction.

    But y'know what? That's not why I go and talk **** to random flagged players before I throw my flag up and engage. And if it is why you're doing it, you're missing the point, and most of the fun.
    This would be true, except for the fact that some MMOs include PVP as part of the plot of the MMO itself. WAR and Aion are both PVP oriented games.

    In Aion, you ran out of quests at 30th level and if you were a PVe'er you've have to grind. This is because at level 25, you could enter the PVP area, which the devs envisioned as one of the best parts of the game.

    Sure some people did grind bosses till they hit 55, but that's not what was intended by the devs.

    The fact is, some games are more centered on PVe but other MMOs are more centered on PVP. And occasionally a game comes along that is balanced between the two, where the two intersect to the point where it's a moot point, because both are equally supported.

    The original Guild Wars had very strong PVe and was a PVe game, but was still famous for it's PVP. Later on in it's life skills were divided to have PVP and PVe versions of the same skills.

    From a players point of view, you obviously like PVe and believe that all games are designed primarily with that in mind..but that's not necessarily true.

    Games like Eve Online, DaoC, and Lineage II are all games that "push" PVP.

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    Trion's statements and actions make for mixed feelings on the subject of where their attention lies.

    When they were releasing trailers and info close to the release, there were specific "Rift PvP" videos (can be found on G4tv.com). However, as the game has progressed, their attention seems focused on PvE. No new PvP content releases is the biggest thing that tells me they aren't all that concerned with keeping the PvP scene a focal point of the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stigas View Post
    Trion's statements and actions make for mixed feelings on the subject of where their attention lies.

    When they were releasing trailers and info close to the release, there were specific "Rift PvP" videos (can be found on G4tv.com). However, as the game has progressed, their attention seems focused on PvE. No new PvP content releases is the biggest thing that tells me they aren't all that concerned with keeping the PvP scene a focal point of the game.
    The OP is right though, there really isnt much of an on going war betwine the 2 factions.
    I do agree pvp deserves some content but then again with the current settings of the game what can they really add? Another BG? Thats probebly just about it.
    World pvp by itself doesnt really need all that much , they really dont need to feed the incentive to do so.
    Adding Guild-controlled keeps would require either new zones or a substantional change to existing ones.
    Which will just result in the same guilds owning them all kinna killing the seige battles all together.

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    It is tough to decide where to begin addressing your post, which I think takes a very unfair view towards PvP players and in many cases ignores the dynamics of Rift. I agree with you that there does not really need to be a "carrot" for people to pvp and pvping for the sake of pvping should be considered one of the largest "rewards" from pvp.

    You touched on the root of the problem of the lack of open world pvp without realizing it when you stated "PVE invariably creates new PVP opportunities". This is so true and has been seen in so many successful MMOs known for their PvP. Now examine PvE content in Rift, for level 50s everything is instanced except for Raid Rifts and Invasions. There aren't any non instanced areas for level 50's to camp for worthwhile loot (Shimmersand beach rifts is about as close as it gets) to act as a PvE/PvP hub. Guarding zone entrances like you suggest is a joke since as you stated they can instantly get in with the lfg, let alone that 1 person can bring an entire raid into a zone or that their are a host of PvP immunity tricks which could be used to get past this sort of blockade anyway.

    PvPers are upset because regardless of any PvP content, there has been no communication with the PvP playerbase as to what direction we can expect PvP content to go or even if any content will be released (although I think we all know that at some point it has to be more than 4 warfronts). PvEers have had the release of River of Souls, Gilded Prophecy as well as being told that Hammerknell and 2 new 10 man instances are on the way. The majority of PvPers in this game understand it is PvE focused and that most new content will be for PvE. All that we ask is that we receive a similar level of communication in regards to the future of PvP in the game.

    Trion has in many ways made it more difficult to PvP in the open world than previously by adding numerous extra guards to the quest hubs as well as putting them on nearly instant respawns. Many people from both PvE and PvP servers complain about the mob density in the game and how it is nearly impossible to move around the world without aggroing things. It is inevitable in any mobile open world pvp battle for someone to aggro an NPC, regardless of whether the NPC hits you or not, simply being in combat with it will cause you take vitality loss when killed in PvP. So you have a world full of mobs and guards giving vitality loss to anyone engaging in open world pvp.

    But y'know what? That's not why I go and talk **** to random flagged players before I throw my flag up and engage. And if it is why you're doing it, you're missing the point, and most of the fun.
    Talking **** doesn't make you a pvper, it just makes you a ******.

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    Ascendant Skidrow Bro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seether View Post
    It is tough to decide where to begin addressing your post, which I think takes a very unfair view towards PvP players and in many cases ignores the dynamics of Rift. I agree with you that there does not really need to be a "carrot" for people to pvp and pvping for the sake of pvping should be considered one of the largest "rewards" from pvp.

    You touched on the root of the problem of the lack of open world pvp without realizing it when you stated "PVE invariably creates new PVP opportunities". This is so true and has been seen in so many successful MMOs known for their PvP. Now examine PvE content in Rift, for level 50s everything is instanced except for Raid Rifts and Invasions. There aren't any non instanced areas for level 50's to camp for worthwhile loot (Shimmersand beach rifts is about as close as it gets) to act as a PvE/PvP hub. Guarding zone entrances like you suggest is a joke since as you stated they can instantly get in with the lfg, let alone that 1 person can bring an entire raid into a zone or that their are a host of PvP immunity tricks which could be used to get past this sort of blockade anyway.

    PvPers are upset because regardless of any PvP content, there has been no communication with the PvP playerbase as to what direction we can expect PvP content to go or even if any content will be released (although I think we all know that at some point it has to be more than 4 warfronts). PvEers have had the release of River of Souls, Gilded Prophecy as well as being told that Hammerknell and 2 new 10 man instances are on the way. The majority of PvPers in this game understand it is PvE focused and that most new content will be for PvE. All that we ask is that we receive a similar level of communication in regards to the future of PvP in the game.

    Trion has in many ways made it more difficult to PvP in the open world than previously by adding numerous extra guards to the quest hubs as well as putting them on nearly instant respawns. Many people from both PvE and PvP servers complain about the mob density in the game and how it is nearly impossible to move around the world without aggroing things. It is inevitable in any mobile open world pvp battle for someone to aggro an NPC, regardless of whether the NPC hits you or not, simply being in combat with it will cause you take vitality loss when killed in PvP. So you have a world full of mobs and guards giving vitality loss to anyone engaging in open world pvp.


    Talking **** doesn't make you a pvper, it just makes you a ******.
    LFD killed the pvp star.

    Instanced dungeons didn't room pvp. Back in WoW BED use to be a hotspot for world pvp. Players would camp instance entrances so the opposing faction couldn't progress. Then the console gamers took over. They started with WoW because it was the easiest mmo to start with. These console gamers come into WoW expecting to join lobby games but they weren't there. Also these gamers couldn't handle the grind and the farming. What took me ages to save up for my epic warlock mount was eventually handed out to these console gamers because they are all about instant gratification plus there is millions of them and when you can hook, line and sinker them it makes a game seem that Damn good.
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    Plane Touched Murff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDX View Post
    Edit: Because I had quoted your entire post
    Dark Age of Camelot, arguably one of the best PvP experiences ever in an MMO, would like to disagree with you...

    Last edited by Murff; 05-30-2011 at 07:51 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stigas View Post
    Trion's statements and actions make for mixed feelings on the subject of where their attention lies.

    When they were releasing trailers and info close to the release, there were specific "Rift PvP" videos (can be found on G4tv.com). However, as the game has progressed, their attention seems focused on PvE. No new PvP content releases is the biggest thing that tells me they aren't all that concerned with keeping the PvP scene a focal point of the game.
    Yes, they did make specific PvP marketing videos, but anyone who watched those and thought Rift PvP would be anything other than it currently is was dreaming. They showed footage from warfronts and they showed footage of players fighting at a rift. That was all. But then you get this crowd that shows up and they want this and they want that and and and...and if we get it, we get it. But to talk in any way like they were mislead is just silly.

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    Champion Harkain's Avatar
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    Its simple realy, this game needs an rvr pool ala warhammer, where outdoor kills in that zone gives you rep, points or whatever for specificly targeted pvp rewards not tied to wfs.

    Just 1 endgame zone with some objectives, a darkness falls dungeon and thats it..port scion maybee ?

    There is an issue adding pvp or rvr content in a game like this without having to hear constant QQ from the so called pvpers about balance issues based on class or numbers (i love rvr games where one side cries the other side has more ppl...welcome to rvr).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murff View Post
    Dark Age of Camelot, arguably one of the best PvP experiences ever in an MMO, would like to disagree with you...

    if you liked bard mess trains then sure.

    daoc was fun cause the rvr feel and concept was new and the game had 3 factions making it pimp not cause the pvp was great, complex or balanced.
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    Prophet of Telara Vexille's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harkain View Post
    if you liked bard mess trains then sure.

    daoc was fun cause the rvr feel and concept was new and the game had 3 factions making it pimp not cause the pvp was great, complex or balanced.
    DAoC worked when it had a balanced PvE and RvR focus. At one time there was a huge PvE component to the game. But Mythic got lazy and drank the PvP focus kool-aid and the game died.

    Since every other PvP centric MMO has been flop, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that PvP is the domain of consoles, not PC based MMOs..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skidrow Bro View Post
    LFD killed the pvp star.

    Instanced dungeons didn't room pvp. Back in WoW BED use to be a hotspot for world pvp. Players would camp instance entrances so the opposing faction couldn't progress. Then the console gamers took over. They started with WoW because it was the easiest mmo to start with. These console gamers come into WoW expecting to join lobby games but they weren't there. Also these gamers couldn't handle the grind and the farming. What took me ages to save up for my epic warlock mount was eventually handed out to these console gamers because they are all about instant gratification plus there is millions of them and when you can hook, line and sinker them it makes a game seem that Damn good.
    No instances didn't kill pvp, pvpers killed pvp themselves. Take you instances....Yes at one time it was somewhat fun to fight your way to your instance but then some decided that it was "fun" to have high levels camp low level instances or have a raid group camp a 5 man. This makes the game very unfun for those who want to do an instance.

    BGs are kinda of fun until they are flooded with twinks.

    It had nothing to do with console gamers but instead self centered people who enjoy making others suffer. A good pvper knows there is a point where pvp will turn into grief and not cross that line. A poor one will just because he can

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    I like to laugh at all of these opinion on why people think this or that, the funny part is they think They have the right answer.
    Last edited by Gill; 05-31-2011 at 01:39 AM. Reason: trolling
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vexille View Post
    DAoC worked when it had a balanced PvE and RvR focus. At one time there was a huge PvE component to the game. But Mythic got lazy and drank the PvP focus kool-aid and the game died.

    Since every other PvP centric MMO has been flop, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that PvP is the domain of consoles, not PC based MMOs..
    Funny how you yourself tell where's the problem, then your "answer" go completely awire....
    keyword: BALANCED.
    for every pvp focused mmorpg that's failed there have been at least a dozen pve focused ones, games wich completely focus on just one aspect will utterly fail.
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    Shield of Telara WriteThemWrong's Avatar
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    I agree that new PvE can also add to PvP but I disagree with PvP not being legitimate end game content. Rift isn't the most PvP focused game but PvP from 1-49 is completely different than lvl 50 PvP. You have a ranking system once you hit 50 and access to new gear made specifically for PvP. Whether or not it will stay stagnant at this point or Trion decides to release new content for PvP will have to be seen. I would love to see more variety in PvP. I'm bored of the old formats, CTF is fun until the 100th time, something completely out of the box would be wonderful.

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