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Thread: Enjoying 1.2 PvP Balance

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    Ascendant Puzzlebox's Avatar
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    Default Enjoying 1.2 PvP Balance

    Rank 6, premade-oriented PvP seems reasonably balanced. I won't comment on pugs vs. premades, pugs vs. pugs, and geared vs. ungeared because that is impossible to balance for.

    -Clerics counter Warrior and Rogue burst, which is high, but not enough to take down a Cleric if there is -cross-healing going on from multiple Clerics.
    -Pyros counter Clerics.
    -Warrior and Rogue focus can counter Mages.

    It might be a bit rock-paper-scissory. But it's working pretty well within the confines of that methodology.

    Mages do insane burst but evaporate if two people look at him the wrong way. They're pretty squishy in 1.2. They can be focused down easily within their ground of strength when that wasn't the case in 1.1.

    Cleric's got a bit of a survivability nerf in 1.2, and now can be taken down with coordinated focus fire from mages when Lingering Wounds is up on them. Before then, even coordinated assist trains weren't guaranteed.

    Warriors do well at the highest tier, with proper support and ranged assist. As this is my main's class it is what I can comment on the most. It is unfortunate that Warriors in PvP cannot solo-play, and absolutely need support around him. In this regard they are the weakest out of all four classes. He needs dedicated heals for him to actually work the front lines. He needs ranged dps to draw some focus fire away from him so he isn't completely burned down or locked down to oblivion. But I find that Battlefield Intimidation is one of the, if not the, strongest game-changing CC in the game. It breaks formations, pinches, players clumping up into a ball of pyro/MM death, and if CC isn't mindlessly spammed, it can make a difference in burning down the last 10% of a high priority target's HP before their healing clerics shoot his health back up. And as always, Lingering Wounds is what makes assist trains tick.

    Red Buffs are fine. I'm not entirely too sure how I feel about Red Buff in Codex/Whitefall, but I find it adds a bit of strategy in Black Garden because the warfront is a constrained enough setting. There are times when we have 3v3s for the red buff. Clerics knock people off bridge. People are careful about which CC to use when to prevent them just walking up and picking up the buff while CC-immune. It's pretty intense.

    There are other times based off of group comps pre-match that we deliberately avoid all buffs and just smash and grab the Fang. Those times it's because there is so much high-valor healing on both sides that it's imperative we get the fang first. It's common in our server cluster to turtle with alot of healers behind the tree close to spawn with fang to LoS ranged dps, especially pyros.

    Seems to be that preferred premade setup on our cluster is 2 Clerics, 2 Pyros, 1 Warrior. This is what the Defiants run and this is what we run. It is from those setups and similar that I base my analysis of 1.2 PvP.

    My only gripes:
    - CC needs to be tweaked still. It's making progress from the original change but needs a bit of work.
    - Certain souls are rendered useless in the 1.2 purge spamming meta-game. Buff-oriented core mechanics should be unpurgable, or have a penalty to the purger if purged, to add a bit of thought as opposed to the mindless spam.
    - Cleric should have a slight tweak in that there is a tradeoff between healing utility vs. survivability. They are almost fine the way they are, but it's my personal opinion that their overall effectively should be tweaked 5% downwards.
    - Warriors and Rogue burst should be tweaked 5-10% upwards. I won't comment on the SLI situation because that's just a gigantic design mess that would require a complete rework.
    -Pyro's are perfectly fine the way they are, with maybe a 2-5% tweak upwards in survivability. The case can be made that they maybe are just a tad too squishy. Especially since a good chunk of their high-valor cleric killing burst is a result of the red ball buff, and not an inherent class trait.

    Overall, I like Trion's approach from 1.1 to 1.2. People felt that they didn't nerf Pyros enough when they saw the patch notes, but it's worked out, and I'm actually thinking Trion's dev team is showing some foresight and balancing with a chisel and not a sledgehammer. Gone are the sweeping huge nerfs across all of a class's souls.

  2. #2
    Ascendant TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    All I hear you talking about as far as mages go are Pyros. So basically, if you're a mage, roll pyro and nuke clerics, that's all your good for. That's what your'e saying.

    Yeah, I'm sure you are enjoying 1.2 pvp, as you clearly aren't a mage.
    Red ball + fulminate + really craptacular dom/pyro spec trying to hard cast transmog and pray your spell lands before some squirrel punching moron eats your controlled opp proc = +1 board warrior keeping mages from being realistically balanced in PVE or PVP. 1.0-1.2's best combo in the game. RIP FOTM Pyro rollers

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    All I hear you talking about as far as mages go are Pyros. So basically, if you're a mage, roll pyro and nuke clerics, that's all your good for. That's what your'e saying.

    Yeah, I'm sure you are enjoying 1.2 pvp, as you clearly aren't a mage.
    ^

    I was going to type up a reply... then read this.

    I will say, could be worse - you could be a warrior. Then your only function is to Subdue burst chains and absorb 100% of your team's healing.
    Last edited by Lysander Salavone; 05-30-2011 at 04:15 PM.

  4. #4
    Rift Disciple Pinke's Avatar
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    Problems with 1.2

    1. 30%+ Valor Clerics + lack of heal scaling for pvp.
    2. Not enough CC categories too many abilities share the same DR.
    3. Needs RvR content.
    Last edited by Pinke; 05-30-2011 at 04:12 PM.

  5. #5
    Ascendant Puzzlebox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    All I hear you talking about as far as mages go are Pyros. So basically, if you're a mage, roll pyro and nuke clerics, that's all your good for. That's what your'e saying.

    Yeah, I'm sure you are enjoying 1.2 pvp, as you clearly aren't a mage.
    Yeah, it really is go Pyro or go home.

    Dom is neutered in 1.2. Stormcaller is a good pug stomper but I haven't really seen it used well against a premade. Chloro healing is horrible with the Lifegiving Veil being purgable. That's one of the mechanics I'd like to see unpurgable.

    Look, ideally you'd have more than a handful of specs all that work wonderfully for PvP and PvE, and there be parity and viability among all. That's a pipedream. Without a complete rework on the Mage class, Pyro is the spec for PvP. It's a shame, but within that framework that Mage=Pyro, Mages are balanced for PvP.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysander Salavone View Post
    ^

    I was going to type up a reply... then read this.

    I will say, could be worse - you could be a warrior. Then your only function is to Subdue burst chains and absorb 100% of your team's healing.
    Warriors are in the same boat as mages. They have one spec for pvp. It's more powerful in a group than a pyro (at least at high rank play) because pyros have a ramp period and are super squishy.

    I posted this already since for some reason it seems like a big secret in game... but it's 38champ/20para/8vk.

    Respec and enjoy.

  7. #7
    Ascendant Visions's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinke View Post
    Problems with 1.2

    1. 30%+ Valor Clerics + lack of heal scaling for pvp.
    This isn't a problem. The reason there is a Valor enhancement is because damage is TOO HIGH, and without it, DPS is 45% higher, than HPS. Remove Valor, they'll have to do what most other games do, and reduce damage in PvP period, by 30%, while most other games are reducing it by 40%.

    This game has a faster time to kill than virtually any other PvP game out there. QUIT COMPLAINING about survivability.


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  8. #8
    Soulwalker
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    Unbalanced pvp is unbalanced. Too much aoe damage. Nerf aoe damage and we're good.

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    Rift Disciple icywind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asynchritus View Post
    Warriors are in the same boat as mages. They have one spec for pvp. It's more powerful in a group than a pyro (at least at high rank play) because pyros have a ramp period and are super squishy.

    I posted this already since for some reason it seems like a big secret in game... but it's 38champ/20para/8vk.

    Respec and enjoy.
    I have used a similar spec before, but I will tell you that spec is not the best, cus while you get some magic dmg mitigation and more dps from RS strength, you lack CC Breaking skills and often can make the difference between killing the key opponent or not. To be a good and fearsome warrior, you need to be able to keep whacking on your target all the time with the minimum down time, otherwise you can expect to whack your opponent down to 20% HP or so, just to get CC and see your opponent get back to full health again, this is especially important in an organized team situation.

    Take it or leave it... just my experience...
    Dayblind - Defiant Warrior (previously from Briarcliff)
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  10. #10
    Prophet of Telara Kaladai's Avatar
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    I'm a R6 Rogue with a different spec for every WF and I'm enjoying 1.2 PVP a lot.

    ^-^
    Krissha@Zaviel
    Isabelpantoja@Zaviel

  11. #11
    Plane Touched
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    Basically if you get what you want then clerics would be 5% easier to kill, while giving you a 15% dmg boost against us?

    I agree that 1.1 was out of hand. I never even tried Rank 5 and did very well without it then with just martyr as I was only Rank 4 then. However, 1.2 has it pretty good with where the cleric is at right now. If it is loses any more survivability an equal opponent if he were also Rank 6 would be able to kill the cleric solo without a mana drain. I have always believed a healing spec'd cleric should not die solo to an equal opponent otherwise healing would be pointless if they can't even save themselves.

    As it is now there is usually one cleric to four dmg dealers in a warfront. That's the most common ratio from my experience. It's usually worse not better in other cases.

    I do agree that mage is almost where it should be now, and I have noticed their survivability is just a bit too low. The 2-5% increase in health would be a good fix.

    Rogues ability to damage is about right, but eradicate needs to be looked at for the class to be in line.
    Warriors are just about right as well, only thing that needs to be checked is the lingering wounds having the ability to keep up an AOE debuff on the opponents entire team if they are clumped up. If ithey keep it AOE it should be cleansable/purgeable. If they make it single target it can keep its affect of being uncleansable/purgeable. If they fix these things the game would be almost perfect for pvp endgame.

  12. #12
    Ascendant Puzzlebox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karnifexx View Post
    Basically if you get what you want then clerics would be 5% easier to kill, while giving you a 15% dmg boost against us?

    I agree that 1.1 was out of hand. I never even tried Rank 5 and did very well without it then with just martyr as I was only Rank 4 then. However, 1.2 has it pretty good with where the cleric is at right now. If it is loses any more survivability an equal opponent if he were also Rank 6 would be able to kill the cleric solo without a mana drain. I have always believed a healing spec'd cleric should not die solo to an equal opponent otherwise healing would be pointless if they can't even save themselves.

    As it is now there is usually one cleric to four dmg dealers in a warfront. That's the most common ratio from my experience. It's usually worse not better in other cases.

    I do agree that mage is almost where it should be now, and I have noticed their survivability is just a bit too low. The 2-5% increase in health would be a good fix.

    Rogues ability to damage is about right, but eradicate needs to be looked at for the class to be in line.
    Warriors are just about right as well, only thing that needs to be checked is the lingering wounds having the ability to keep up an AOE debuff on the opponents entire team if they are clumped up. If ithey keep it AOE it should be cleansable/purgeable. If they make it single target it can keep its affect of being uncleansable/purgeable. If they fix these things the game would be almost perfect for pvp endgame.
    I should have been more careful with the numbers. They weren't really pure percentages, just indications of degrees to which they should be tweaked up or down.

    I guess I should have said, Clerics have a slight, slight, slight tweak downwards. Rogue and Warriors have a slight, slight tweak upwards.

    Lingering Wounds is a hard thing to balance for. Because team comp comes into play. It's utterly miserable for a single healing Cleric. They're getting focused up the *** and everyone has Mortal Strike on them. But for 3 clerics that are cross-healing? It's definitely manageable. This isn't even considering gear differentials between the players. Or pug vs. premade.

  13. #13
    Plane Touched
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    Only way I ever get two competent clerics being in a wf is if I make the premade myself prior to queuing. Even if a third cleric showed up he'd be like oh two clerics healing, I'll go dps. If he even decided to heal, his heals on my battleshard wouldn't be worthy to call another healer. However, 9 times out of 10 they choose that dps route. Therefore, lets say 2 clerics could manage the healing of the FF coming from the melee train with the healing debuff on their target would be more in line of what seems more possible. Because of the healing debuff its taking two clerics to do the job of what one cleric could do if it wasn't healing debuffed. While the target is going to take twice the damage. If each cleric can heal for two dmg, and each warrior could dps for two dmg. Then what you have is 4 dmg vs the target being healed for 2 dmg. The target will drop once cooldowns are up even if its being healed. Which is fine, because if it wasn't this way nothing would die. However, this doesn't even play a role whether the healing debuff is aoe or single target cuz both warriors have to be on same focus target. Its the fact that if you had two pyro mages on the same team, each mage would be another train. That's two people dying while the clerics are doing everything they can to save the third for a certain amount of time. That is where the AOE healing debuff is coming into play in being just a lil OP. Even without the red orbs for the mages with the healing debuff up on every target, for people that are Rank 1-3 keeping them up is impossible against pyro dmg in terms of trying to heal it while healing that other guy getting melee trained. If he didn't have the healing debuff it would be manegable, even so the clerics would have to be very quick with the heals to do it.

  14. #14
    Plane Walker
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    http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/57...077D7AFE6A196/

    Here's a link from a warfront I participated yesterday. I made this link because I don't think I've been in such an unbalanced game before. Basically that bard and me accounted for three times the healing of the other side. The opposing team had a bard who was half as good as our own and a cleric that managed to heal as much as their bard (I assume he was a very fresh cleric).

    The opposing team were not pushovers, they had some great dps. Unfortunately they didn't have the healing staying power and I was getting tons of protection from my own team. I was jumped on multiple occasions by multiple excellent rogues, only to have my team neutering them before my overload was down. Warriors were getting slowed before even reaching me and mages were getting focused fast.

    It's not enough to have good healers in a warfront. Protecting them allows them to perform miracles
    High five for that awesome warfront team and well played Guardians, I hate it when Scion becomes a race to the commander.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puzzlebox View Post
    Rank 6, premade-oriented PvP seems reasonably balanced. I won't comment on pugs vs. premades, pugs vs. pugs, and geared vs. ungeared because that is impossible to balance for.

    -Clerics counter Warrior and Rogue burst, which is high, but not enough to take down a Cleric if there is -cross-healing going on from multiple Clerics.
    -Pyros counter Clerics.
    -Warrior and Rogue focus can counter Mages.

    It might be a bit rock-paper-scissory. But it's working pretty well within the confines of that methodology.

    Mages do insane burst but evaporate if two people look at him the wrong way. They're pretty squishy in 1.2. They can be focused down easily within their ground of strength when that wasn't the case in 1.1.

    Cleric's got a bit of a survivability nerf in 1.2, and now can be taken down with coordinated focus fire from mages when Lingering Wounds is up on them. Before then, even coordinated assist trains weren't guaranteed.

    Warriors do well at the highest tier, with proper support and ranged assist. As this is my main's class it is what I can comment on the most. It is unfortunate that Warriors in PvP cannot solo-play, and absolutely need support around him. In this regard they are the weakest out of all four classes. He needs dedicated heals for him to actually work the front lines. He needs ranged dps to draw some focus fire away from him so he isn't completely burned down or locked down to oblivion. But I find that Battlefield Intimidation is one of the, if not the, strongest game-changing CC in the game. It breaks formations, pinches, players clumping up into a ball of pyro/MM death, and if CC isn't mindlessly spammed, it can make a difference in burning down the last 10% of a high priority target's HP before their healing clerics shoot his health back up. And as always, Lingering Wounds is what makes assist trains tick.

    Red Buffs are fine. I'm not entirely too sure how I feel about Red Buff in Codex/Whitefall, but I find it adds a bit of strategy in Black Garden because the warfront is a constrained enough setting. There are times when we have 3v3s for the red buff. Clerics knock people off bridge. People are careful about which CC to use when to prevent them just walking up and picking up the buff while CC-immune. It's pretty intense.

    There are other times based off of group comps pre-match that we deliberately avoid all buffs and just smash and grab the Fang. Those times it's because there is so much high-valor healing on both sides that it's imperative we get the fang first. It's common in our server cluster to turtle with alot of healers behind the tree close to spawn with fang to LoS ranged dps, especially pyros.

    Seems to be that preferred premade setup on our cluster is 2 Clerics, 2 Pyros, 1 Warrior. This is what the Defiants run and this is what we run. It is from those setups and similar that I base my analysis of 1.2 PvP.

    My only gripes:
    - CC needs to be tweaked still. It's making progress from the original change but needs a bit of work.
    - Certain souls are rendered useless in the 1.2 purge spamming meta-game. Buff-oriented core mechanics should be unpurgable, or have a penalty to the purger if purged, to add a bit of thought as opposed to the mindless spam.
    - Cleric should have a slight tweak in that there is a tradeoff between healing utility vs. survivability. They are almost fine the way they are, but it's my personal opinion that their overall effectively should be tweaked 5% downwards.
    - Warriors and Rogue burst should be tweaked 5-10% upwards. I won't comment on the SLI situation because that's just a gigantic design mess that would require a complete rework.
    -Pyro's are perfectly fine the way they are, with maybe a 2-5% tweak upwards in survivability. The case can be made that they maybe are just a tad too squishy. Especially since a good chunk of their high-valor cleric killing burst is a result of the red ball buff, and not an inherent class trait.

    Overall, I like Trion's approach from 1.1 to 1.2. People felt that they didn't nerf Pyros enough when they saw the patch notes, but it's worked out, and I'm actually thinking Trion's dev team is showing some foresight and balancing with a chisel and not a sledgehammer. Gone are the sweeping huge nerfs across all of a class's souls.
    what class do you play OP ?

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