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Thread: Champion soul still extremely overpowered for group PvP

  1. #1
    Rift Master Click's Avatar
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    Default Champion soul still extremely overpowered for group PvP

    I've waited long enough for Trion to do something about this soul. It's been 3 months and the only nerf Trion made to this soul was to the once overpowered Titan's Strike. My primary complaint about the Champion soul is with how overpowered Battlefield Intimidation and Lingering Wounds are. These 2 skills need to be looked at carefully and balanced to the level of other callings' similar skills.

    Lingering Wounds is quite possibly the single-most overpowered skill any calling has for group PvP. 50% healing debuff on the opposing team is game-changing. 2 or more Warriors can consistently keep LW on their enemy's group with Proper / Perfect Timing and one of their various AoE finishers.

    I wouldn't be complaining about Lingering Wounds if not for the fact that this passive skill cannot be purged nor cleansed, while other 50% healing debuff abilities from other callings do not have this unfair advantage.

    Mages' Void Shroud (18 skill points) can be cleansed and cannot be applied to an entire group of players. Void Shroud lasts for 10 seconds, while Lingering Wounds lasts 15 seconds. Rogues have to apply a weapon enchantment called Fell Blades in order to have a chance to do 50% healing debuff on players. It takes 32 points to obtain, while Lingering Wounds only takes 17 points to spec into. Fell Blades cannot be applied on command. You just have to get lucky and hope it procs (20% chance). Since it's a weapon enchantment, it can be purged from the Rogue. On top of that, it can also be cleansed off of the player(s) that are effected by it.

    Battlefield Intimidation is the most overpowered CC in the game. AoE Fear in this game is already imbalanced (they should all break on damage like Mezes), but BI takes it to another level. BI cannot be broken by damage AT ALL. Unlike other AoE Fears (Clerics and Mages) or Mezes (Rogues), there is no damage cap that can break this CC. The only way to break it is to use a CC-breaking, cooldown skill. It lasts for 6 seconds and is on a short, 30 second cooldown. 6 seconds where you're unable to do anything but watch you or your teammates get bursted down, watching the fang get picked up, capture points getting capped, and/or your flag being taken. 9 seconds if there are 2 Warriors chaining BI back-to-back. Battlefield Intimidation is essentially an AoE stun that lasts for 6 seconds instead of an actual, single-target Stun's 4 seconds.

    Let's compare BI with similar AoE CC Rogues have, shall we? Poison Gas seems to be an ability Assassins use quite often these days. It's basically the Rogue's version of BI, except it's an AoE Mez, instead of AoE Fear. Poison Gas is broken as soon as any damage is dealt onto the player(s) being effected. It requires 44 points to obtain while BI only takes 11 points to obtain. Verse of Fascination is the Bard's version of BI, except again, it's an AoE Mez that breaks on damage and it also has a cast time. It takes 26 points to obtain.

    I can provide other examples and comparisons from Clerics and Mages, but I think you get the point. Alone, without healers, Warriors / Champions aren't overpowered. But with healer(s) and multiple Warriors on the same team, using the same Champion / Paragon specs, they are extremely OP in group PvP.

    The Champion soul has been overpowered since beta. But because most Warriors are too dumb to realize how OP Champion / Paragon is for group PvP and not enough Warriors abuse these skills like certain Warriors in my battlegroup do, there isn't much of an outcry on these forums about how OP'd this soul is.

  2. #2
    Plane Touched
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    Maybe you should go play a champion and see how long you last.


    My guess is not long unless you know two clerics.

  3. #3
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    Try mouse turning and not keyboard turning to negate 90% of a Champ's burst. Bonus points if you actually put a snare on the Champ that lasts longer than a second, while you instantly break his snare with a cooldown. The lag alone will keep the champion just out of range.
    Last edited by Lysander Salavone; 05-30-2011 at 04:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysander Salavone View Post
    Try mouse turning and not keyboard turning to negate 90% of a Champ's burst. Bonus points if you actually put a snare on the Champ that lasts longer than a second, while you instantly break his snare with a cooldown. The lag alone will keep the champion just out of range.
    Which is why the champion should try to get in melee range initially without using up their only gap closer skill if they only have one. Get to melee. He does some CC and gets out of melee, you charge back (ruthless pursuit/break free if necessary) and snare. Now you can keep in melee. They CC you again but if it's a snare, you can still keep in range. If it's another root/snare, and assuming you had vindicator soul, you can break it still. If they still inch out of melee range, you can root+fear them, which works for catching up even if they were already immune to movement-cc. If they're only slightly out of range, the aoe finisher could still hit.
    More points in Vindicator gets you a jump ability to get back in melee, which also means that no class can prevent a warrior (with proper spec) from initially getting into melee if they just choose to do so.. Thunderous Leap + another gap closer is 40m distance covered.

    Then there are some ranged abilities on other souls and other gap closers. Riftblade/Champion in particular with Riftwalk/Planar Blade/Proper Timing combo and random crits can be very difficult to keep away from melee if you let him within 20m in the first place (which is unpreventable if they've got 10 points in Vindicator for Thunderous Leap)

    If someone can kite you all the time through all the abilities a champion has, then they deserve to win the fight if you ask me. And I play a champion.

  5. #5
    Ascendant Puzzlebox's Avatar
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    Battlefield Intimidation is the strongest CC in the game. Warriors are dangerous in organized R6 play. There's nothing scarier than two R6 Warriors charging in with sufficient heals to keep them up, chain Battlefield Intimidating, and 1-2globaling all the low valor puggies then setting up Lingering Wounds on the high-valor, high-priority players for the Pyro assist.

    Sincerely,
    A Warrior.

  6. #6
    Shield of Telara Krazer's Avatar
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    Champion is one of the most if not the most balanced class in the game.

    It's threads like this that make PvP worse, and lower anyones IQ who is unfortunate enough to have read this.

  7. #7
    Ascendant Puzzlebox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krazer View Post
    Champion is one of the most if not the most balanced class in the game.

    It's threads like this that make PvP worse, and lower anyones IQ who is unfortunate enough to have read this.
    It shouldn't be nerfed.

    But it is very, very strong.

    And I agree. Champion is pretty much perfect.

  8. #8
    Telaran
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    Champions are only overpowered when they're R6 running in pre-mades. Everyone is overpowered then, and you'll get steamrolled by any class.

    No champions don't need nerfing. All you're going to do is punish people leveling and lower geared 50s.

  9. #9
    Ascendant Puzzlebox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackArrow View Post
    Champions are only overpowered when they're R6 running in pre-mades. Everyone is overpowered then, and you'll get steamrolled by any class.

    No champions don't need nerfing. All you're going to do is punish people leveling and lower geared 50s.
    This is exactly what happened in Vanilla WoW.

    Warriors were fairly balanced when everyone hit 60 for the first time. Then you had those insane 2-handers. First it was the Arcanite Reaper, Hand of Rag, Ashkandi, HW/GM 2Hands. Corrupted Ashbringer, Might of Menethil. Warriors scaled way too well with high-end Raid gear and were easily blowing everyone up. So core talents started to get severely nerfed. Again.

    And again.

    And again.

    Weapon Normalization. Rage Normalization. Nerfs on Talent %'s. It definitely did bring Raid-Geared Warriors in line as far as PvP went...

    But it made being a fresh 60 blue/green warrior a miserable, awful, horrible experience.

  10. #10
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    Battlefield Intimidation is strong without a doubt. The aoe aspect of it does have drawbacks too though. Do you (always) really need to make everyone nearby closer to being immune?

    And since it roots _and_ fears the target, it's dual-category CC for one target without an actual benefit?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDirtyRider View Post
    Maybe you should go play a champion and see how long you last.
    Should be a requisite from now on whenever anyone talks about a class or build being overpowered.

    I have made those kinds of accusations in the past, but then when you actually play the class/build you find things are not as crazy as you thought.

    You can't just cherry pick the benefits of the class and call them overpowered. You could do that with every class/build/spec.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puzzlebox View Post
    This is exactly what happened in Vanilla WoW.

    Warriors were fairly balanced when everyone hit 60 for the first time. Then you had those insane 2-handers. First it was the Arcanite Reaper, Hand of Rag, Ashkandi, HW/GM 2Hands. Corrupted Ashbringer, Might of Menethil. Warriors scaled way too well with high-end Raid gear and were easily blowing everyone up. So core talents started to get severely nerfed. Again.

    And again.

    And again.

    Weapon Normalization. Rage Normalization. Nerfs on Talent %'s. It definitely did bring Raid-Geared Warriors in line as far as PvP went...

    But it made being a fresh 60 blue/green warrior a miserable, awful, horrible experience.
    That's the issue with PvP...

    You cannot ever balance it near perfectly without hurting the new 50s making their life MISERABLE beyond belief.

    If you nerf a class too much, a new 50 will give up and reroll, you have to balance PvP around R2ish - R3ish.

    You cant balance it for R6, every class deserve what overpoweredness they bring with stat/gear scaling and talent scaling if they get that high.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pesmergia View Post
    That's the issue with PvP...

    You cannot ever balance it near perfectly without hurting the new 50s making their life MISERABLE beyond belief.

    If you nerf a class too much, a new 50 will give up and reroll, you have to balance PvP around R2ish - R3ish.

    You cant balance it for R6, every class deserve what overpoweredness they bring with stat/gear scaling and talent scaling if they get that high.
    I have a sneaking suspicion that this is why they made AP scale horribly and have yet to fix it. To prevent what happened in WoW where raid-geared Rogues and Warriors demolished everything.

  14. #14
    Rift Master Click's Avatar
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    Funny how the people saying Champion is balanced cannot refute the facts I've laid out in my original post. Battlefield Intimidation and Lingering Wounds are overpowered. No other callings have skills comparable to them. Please name 1 AoE CC that can't be broken on damage. Please name 1 50% healing debuff that cannot be purged, nor cleansed. That's right, nobody can name them because they don't exist. Only Champions have these unfair skills.

    Those trying to make excuses like Champions are melee and they can be snared / CC'd / kited... other callings' melee-specific souls have to deal with the same thing. Except, Champions have Ruthless Pursuit and Bull Rush / Overrun to help them out, all in the same tree. The Champion soul is the perfect 1-stop shop for PvP. They can burst damage, have unfair CCs, unfair healing debuff, anti-CC, etc. all packed into 1 soul.

    Warriors don't even need to spec into 2 other souls to be overpowered in PvP. They only need Champion. The other 2 souls (1 usually being Paragon) are just icing on the OP cake. Want more damage, faster finishers, 50% run speed for 15 seconds (21 if spec'd) every minute, and a finisher that grants you godmode against melees? Paragon's your spec. Want some healing and 20% less damage under 30% health? Go Reaver. Want a full heal, more health, and reduced CC time? Go Paladin. Want some ranged non-physical attacks? Get Riftblade. Etc. etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tizian View Post
    Battlefield Intimidation is strong without a doubt. The aoe aspect of it does have drawbacks too though. Do you (always) really need to make everyone nearby closer to being immune?

    And since it roots _and_ fears the target, it's dual-category CC for one target without an actual benefit?
    You can be chain Feared by BI with 2 or more Warriors. The 2nd Fear effect is still there, just 3 seconds instead of 6 due to diminishing returns. BI has no drawbacks whatsoever.
    Last edited by Click; 05-30-2011 at 05:31 PM.

  15. #15
    Shield of Telara baph's Avatar
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    Yes, very strong class in group PvP. At high ranks the burst is crazy and they are hard to kill with any healers in the area. But I don't think they should be nerfed.

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