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Thread: Why is gear valued higher than skill in pvp?

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    Telaran
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    Default Why is gear valued higher than skill in pvp?

    This isn't about any particular class, it's regarding gear being more important than skill in PVP. I've had many people dead to rights in pvp, and they simply won't die because their gear is better than mine. I end up dying because their buddy comes along to save them, or they simply outlast me. If I fight someone with similar gear to mine, either it's a close fight, or I win. In the end it's our knowledge and use of the character we're playing that allows one of us to win.


    Why is it that time spent in a warfront is more important than a person's skill in pvp? Does anyone have any ideas that devs can implement to actually make pvp more skill based?

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    Ascendant Visions's Avatar
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    It's a growing trend in MMOs to reward people for the amount of time they *can* play. A lot of people just will not continue to play, unless they've got something to play towards, so to keep people playing, they reward them with gear.


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    Ascendant Apoth's Avatar
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    welcome to MMORPG the only genre that is "a** backwards" in this regard.

    WTB the above item .... mine broke

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    Telaran
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    because there are more people who are not skilled than there are skilled, therefore more people are happy and continuing to play the game.

    but once everyone reaches rank6, then skill does play an important role.

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    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackArrow View Post
    This isn't about any particular class, it's regarding gear being more important than skill in PVP. I've had many people dead to rights in pvp, and they simply won't die because their gear is better than mine. I end up dying because their buddy comes along to save them, or they simply outlast me. If I fight someone with similar gear to mine, either it's a close fight, or I win. In the end it's our knowledge and use of the character we're playing that allows one of us to win.


    Why is it that time spent in a warfront is more important than a person's skill in pvp? Does anyone have any ideas that devs can implement to actually make pvp more skill based?
    I assume it is a rhetorical question, otherwise you need a reality check.
    I don't think anyone likes this type of game design anymore. Game market has been shifting towards console-like instant fun games for a while now. Rift is one of a dieing breed (in more than one way). As soon as a new game comes out it will become a ghost town for exactly that reason. Most people I know just waiting out till GW2 or D3.
    Will this game change? Extremely unlikely. So don't ask abstract questions. Stop taking it so seriously and enjoy while it lasts.
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    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by liho1eye View Post
    I assume it is a rhetorical question, otherwise you need a reality check.
    I don't think anyone likes this type of game design anymore. Game market has been shifting towards console-like instant fun games for a while now. Rift is one of a dieing breed (in more than one way). As soon as a new game comes out it will become a ghost town for exactly that reason. Most people I know just waiting out till GW2 or D3.
    Will this game change? Extremely unlikely. So don't ask abstract questions. Stop taking it so seriously and enjoy while it lasts.
    Yes, asking a relevant question to balance out a game, so that everyone can play on a level field is taking it too seriously.
    Last edited by Walsingham; 05-30-2011 at 10:50 AM. Reason: Rude

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    Ascendant McWaffle's Avatar
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    Its not,

    Its what those who arnt willing to invest the time and practice say so they dont have to acknowledge that it is there fault. While its a definite advantage, its by no means the end all be all. I have done exceedingly well usually in the top 5 for KBs and DMG (which I dont even think garner much merit, but its how they like to) and usually top incoming damage, as I dont spec for DPS. I am still rank 1 or 0, whatever you start at.


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    Last edited by McWaffle; 05-30-2011 at 10:45 AM.
    There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.

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    Ascendant Apoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by liho1eye View Post
    and enjoy while it lasts.
    enjoy it while it lasts? i think its one of the most ******ed mechanics of any genre. like i said MMORGPs are completely a**backwards when it comes to power.

    in chess - if i play someone who has played chess for 20 years they don't get all queens and I the beginner get all pawns

    in poker - if i sit at a table with guys who have been playing all their lives, they don't get 10 cards while i get 5

    in basketball if i play michael jordan - i don't have to play on my hands and knees.

    in street fighter 4 - If i play someone new to the game (i have been playing it since the original street fighter) i don't get some super ryu who can throw Hadokens that take half your life off.

    in RTS games like star craft - if i play the grand champion as a noob they don't get super units at the start while i get JUST the basic unit.

    and so on and so forth .. and notice i didn't even bring up FPS games.

    in most game time does NOT equal power, time gets you knowledge and situational awareness.

    WTB the above item .... mine broke

  9. #9
    Ascendant McWaffle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoth View Post
    enjoy it while it lasts? i think its one of the most ******ed mechanics of any genre. like i said MMORGPs are completely a**backwards when it comes to power.

    in chess - if i play someone who has played chess for 20 years they don't get all queens and I the beginner get all pawns

    in poker - if i sit at a table with guys who have been playing all their lives, they don't get 10 cards while i get 5

    in basketball if i play michael jordan - i don't have to play on my hands and knees.

    in street fighter 4 - If i play someone new to the game (i have been playing it since the original street fighter) i don't get some super ryu who can throw Hadokens that take half your life off.

    in RTS games like star craft - if i play the grand champion as a noob they don't get super units at the start while i get JUST the basic unit.

    and so on and so forth .. and notice i didn't even bring up FPS games.

    in most game time does NOT equal power, time gets you knowledge and situational awareness.
    Gear has always been able to give you an advantage in MMOs, since the start. Its why you invest the time to earn it. Since UO (pre-carebear, i mean poolucca and trammel) you could out geat an opponent (but if you lost you would lose all said gear)

    That is where the problem is, there is no risk for the advantage. And it will never be solved in a large scale MMO as trammel was the end.
    Last edited by McWaffle; 05-30-2011 at 10:52 AM.
    There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.

    Click to watch my vidyas.
    140 + PvP, oPvP, PvE all classes.

  10. #10
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apoth View Post
    enjoy it while it lasts? i think its one of the most ******ed mechanics of any genre. like i said MMORGPs are completely a**backwards when it comes to power.

    in chess - if i play someone who has played chess for 20 years they don't get all queens and I the beginner get all pawns

    in poker - if i sit at a table with guys who have been playing all their lives, they don't get 10 cards while i get 5

    in basketball if i play michael jordan - i don't have to play on my hands and knees.

    in street fighter 4 - If i play someone new to the game (i have been playing it since the original street fighter) i don't get some super ryu who can throw Hadokens that take half your life off.

    in RTS games like star craft - if i play the grand champion as a noob they don't get super units at the start while i get JUST the basic unit.

    and so on and so forth .. and notice i didn't even bring up FPS games.

    in most game time does NOT equal power, time gets you knowledge and situational awareness.
    Ok, then don't enjoy. Keep on raging or quit, I don't care. I am just telling how things are, and that they are not going to change in the context of this particular game. Taking it seriously is a mistake I made before, so I though I might share to save you some trouble. But if you along with that BlackArrow clown just wanna have a pissing contest, then feel free to go on between yourselves.
    -- Trollhammer@Molinar

  11. #11
    Prophet of Telara NatashaK's Avatar
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    I agree that gear should be normalized in warfronts. Skilled players want their skill as the only advantage. That said, nothing pisses off PvP players more than having PvErs having a gear advantage in PvP (unless there's corpse looting so that gear is risked).

    But if you remove the advantage from PvP gear in WF, you need to have some other place for people to be able to wear their "PvP progression" gear. Maybe it has the same progression as PvE gear (like warhammer). Maybe there's open "RvR" objectives as an end game and WF are just a sandbox preparing you for this.

  12. #12
    Rift Master Arcticred's Avatar
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    This has always been the case in every MMO i've played in the last ten years.
    To varying degrees of course. To be perfectly honest thats why i roll alts alot, low level PvP is where the skill is, everyone is on a par with gear and CC. I do have a P5 Rogue and a lvl50 Cleric for gold farming.

    But in the last few MMO's i have played i use my level capped characters to raid and socialise, and my alts to PvP with.
    The perfect example of the "gear" effect at endgame are a couple of old guildys i leveled with, we dueled constantly and went out ganking together all the time. Every time we dueled i won 99% of the time, from level 1-50. They are rogue and cleric, i rolled a cleric and leveled him to 50 then went back to my Rogue, my two friends where both P6 and i was P3. Every time we duel now they beat me, not by much but they still beat me.

    Thats a fact of life now in MMO's, gear > skill with similar skilled players, there are the odd exceptions but on the whole its true. So if you dont wanna try other classes out, or if you have 8hrs a day to play and are sticking with the same toon then you will hit a point where you can beat better players, untill they gear up.
    Last edited by Arcticred; 05-30-2011 at 11:12 AM.
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  13. #13
    Ascendant
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    Gear is not the end all be all of anything people that say it is are bad and unwilling to admit it. There is no reason a rank 4 cant beat a rank 6 and rank 2 cant beat a rank 4. Sure gear provides an advantage it doesnt decide the fight. Gear is just another excuse to prevent people from admitting they suck just like the people who whine about premades.
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  14. #14
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaym7018 View Post
    Gear is not the end all be all of anything people that say it is are bad and unwilling to admit it. There is no reason a rank 4 cant beat a rank 6 and rank 2 cant beat a rank 4. Sure gear provides an advantage it doesnt decide the fight. Gear is just another excuse to prevent people from admitting they suck just like the people who whine about premades.
    Why are people like you so vehemently opposed to a level playing field? What's the excuse?

    Edit: Just to clarify. Having R6 gear is the end all, be all as you stated. When an R5/6 premade rolls into a pug WF, it's pretty much the end, since that pug has pretty much already lost while they become a punching bag on their way to collecting favor.
    Last edited by BlackArrow; 05-30-2011 at 11:54 AM.

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    Scenario: England decides to invade Ireland.

    Scene 1, Englands armies roll up on shore and proceed to get into formation to begin the invasion.

    Enter referee: Sorry England, all the plate armor, gotta go.

    England: But why?

    Referee: Well, Ireland hasn't developed plate armour yet. What would be an unfair advantage.

    England: But they had the same time as us to develope it.

    Referee: I know I know, but you still cant use it. Oh ya,and those longbows.......

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