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Thread: A few thoughts on old DAOC PVP mechanics.

  1. #1
    Telaran
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    Default A few thoughts on old DAOC PVP mechanics.

    I was playing this games PVP and realized a few things that I learned since my days of DAOC. Alot of the things I used to dislike I appreciate now and realize how they made DAOC combat great. Such as:

    1. NOT recovering instantly after fights with drinks for example. Unless you had a class to toss you heals or regen then not only did winning fights matter, but choosing them and winning them well mattered.

    2. Speaking of, having limited resources to fight with. You could cast spells or heal for 10 minutes before running out of power. You couldn't whale on someone melee without running out of endurance. After that you were much less effective as your power/endo slowly regend. Certain classes and abilities helped this significantly but it was still a hard limit. this encouraged wise ability use and again comes with choosing fights and fighting them well...instead of todays "omg spam x rotation!!" drivel. It also made the decision to rez, whether in or out of combat, very very important. Was it worth using X large amount of my power to rez this person or should I wait till the fight is over?

    3. Positional combat moves. Not only did you get your spammable skills and maybe the odd backstab, every melee class had positional moves that were on the whole more powerful and less costly endurance wise than "anytime" moves. Positioning was key for more reasons than todays "lollercopter" attempts at abusing LOS. It was also a hard core deterrent of those attempts as you open yourself up to a possibly costly positional by doing such.

    4. Stealthers were a pain in the butt, however they made people move as a unit or risk being picked off. Net gain in preventing the solo rambo syndrome and encouraging team play. Good ones also actively played the "intel" game. Where knowledge could very well win you the fight.

    5. Healers classes being focused. If you were meant to be strait support your not going to be killing anyone. If your meant to be hybrid you can do both to a lesser degree. If your meant to be minor support then you can hold your own, and heal a little on the side. There wasn't this "holy crap I'm so special i'm playing a healer and being vastly important to my team BUT I need to be able to do damage too!!" I realize they are trying to get people to play healers but they really SHOULD NOT do everything unless they do EVERYTHING less effectively. IE top heals should not suddenly gain moderate damage. They should go down to moderate heals as a tradeoff for the damage and have to balance the aforementioned limited resources.

    6. A stick command. It kept you on your target without having to try and perfectly follow their movements. That being said you could still be "juked" and players relying on it instead of using it as a supplement could be taken advantage of with positional attacks more or less at will by a good player.

    7. Shield blocks actually BLOCKED things. They didn't just reduce damage. I never understood how blocking something with your shield reduced damage by X %, especially when a parry would outright stop it. I understand the thinking that it's easier to balance that way and an easier way to especially balance raid bosses. But really imo it's stupid and it sucks and you COULD balance it without resorting to a cop out. (such as giving certain attacks a % of damage that hits even if blocked for raid bosses).

    Maybe I'm masochistic but these are things I've learned to appreciate after playing scads of games with PVP doing the exact opposite and I feel these things (and likely others I forget) ultimately create alot more strategy and allow for a higher skill cap. It's not likely they will ever make it into Rift but I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter. Especially from people who actually had significant experience with DAOC.
    Last edited by Randell44; 05-29-2011 at 11:59 PM.

  2. #2
    RIFT Guide Writer Flaymar's Avatar
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    I loved DAOC - however i think Guild Wars is a better pvp model that should be looked at.

  3. #3
    Champion of Telara
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    DAOC was so much better, there is no way in hell this game's pvp will ever compare to it.

    #1 reason: The game wasn't based around PVE and didn't have so much PVE crap interfering with it.

  4. #4
    Plane Touched Avandor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by perlfreak View Post
    DAOC was so much better, there is no way in hell this game's pvp will ever compare to it.

    #1 reason: The game wasn't based around PVE and didn't have so much PVE crap interfering with it.
    DAoC was a RvR/PvP MMO with some PvE... Rift is a PvE MMO with some PvP.

    "Eradicating your buffs since May 11th 2011"

  5. #5
    Shadowlander
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    If you want to play old DAOC PVP mechanics..... GO PLAY DAOC. This is RIFT. They are not the same. I dont know why people even post stupid ideas like these even thinking that developers glance at these boards

  6. #6
    Champion of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avandor View Post
    DAoC was a RvR/PvP MMO with some PvE... Rift is a PvE MMO with some PvP.
    RvR was the end game.

    I am talking about the way they balance heals and damage mitigation. In order to do the end game PvE in this game, you need lots of damage mitigation, which comes from the tanking specs and so on. PvE DPS is pretty much just a matter of how long the fight takes.

    You take these same people into PvP and it becomes ridiculous because these figures are balanced for PvE rather than PvP.

  7. #7
    Champion of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sifilide View Post
    If you want to play old DAOC PVP mechanics..... GO PLAY DAOC. This is RIFT. They are not the same. I dont know why people even post stupid ideas like these even thinking that developers glance at these boards
    They do read the boards and they even reply to threads from time to time. They have for the most part done a good job at listening to the players and fixing things, but there are still problems.

  8. #8
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sifilide View Post
    If you want to play old DAOC PVP mechanics..... GO PLAY DAOC. This is RIFT. They are not the same. I dont know why people even post stupid ideas like these even thinking that developers glance at these boards
    If you note I merely spoke of things that I came to appreciate and asked for opinions. While I will certainly pre-order should they come out with a DAOC 2, this game is understandably past the point of any fundamental changes, least of all for PVP reasons. I understand exactly and still play Rift, for the moment. Undoubtedly my attention will fade in a few months because I will tire with the countless imbalances in both PVP and PVE, though it's possible Trion could surprise me.

    While your statement is a viable opinion in and of itself, it has nothing to do with what I requested you express and opinion on.

    RvR was the end game.

    I am talking about the way they balance heals and damage mitigation. In order to do the end game PvE in this game, you need lots of damage mitigation, which comes from the tanking specs and so on. PvE DPS is pretty much just a matter of how long the fight takes.

    You take these same people into PvP and it becomes ridiculous because these figures are balanced for PvE rather than PvP.
    Quite so, but again perhaps a bit off the mark from what I was looking for. I was looking for direct feedback on the listed mechanics and perhaps a bit of a comparison to Rift as is inevitable. It's understood that Rift PVP will forever be imbalanced since the skills use the same exact values as PVE.

    For instance: "I LIKE not having to worry about running out of mana. I don't like feeling useless. It sucks to sit around and not be able to heal or kill anyone because your out of mana." or "I feel that having a limited mana pool would help show the difference between bad players and good players. I'd prefer to use spells at the right time rather than whenever available."

  9. #9
    Plane Touched
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    I really, really miss positionals. WAR had some but they eventually made em anytime, think maybe WoW had some backstab as well.

    Shadowbane, for all its flaws/bugs/crashing, had some amazing classes and combat (when it was working, it was pure gold).

    Both games were RvR/PvP first, PvE 2nd (as mentioned above).

    => It is why GW2 gets brought up alot, it (should be) a PvP first game.

    Anyways, as someone above also said, the HP verse DPS&heals is messed up in many ways for PvP since it is PvE 'balanced'.

  10. #10
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrokTheFanatic View Post
    I really, really miss positionals. WAR had some but they eventually made em anytime, think maybe WoW had some backstab as well.
    I'd kill for positionals, if nothing else to stop the lollercoptering. It's not all that effective against a good player, it's just annoying and attempting to abuse LOS mechanics. Though I have seen it effectively used against anything casted.

  11. #11
    Rift Master Catalysts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sifilide View Post
    If you want to play old DAOC PVP mechanics..... GO PLAY DAOC. This is RIFT. They are not the same. I dont know why people even post stupid ideas like these even thinking that developers glance at these boards
    If you don't think the Devs actualy read things or look at things on these boards then you are obviously new here.

    So new guy allow me to say welcome to the forums.

    Now try shut up and look around long enough to figure things out just a tad before you make a bad name for yourself within your first 20 posts. The devs do make their way in here to read things, and comment on things to clarify situations. So now you have been slightly edjucated on the matter

    People have a right to their opinion as you have a right to yours, if you disagree with it, feel free to point out why and raise some counter points, and express a solid opinion, or you can act like a contplete tool like you did in the above post and think for some reason your opinion should matter more than someone elses who was also being more constructive than you at the time.

    Or hey you could always go with the alternative and be just another mouthy know nothing wannabe that shoots his mouth off with no factual backing or insight to what is correct. Your choice.

    Cheers.

  12. #12
    Plane Touched Avandor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sifilide View Post
    If you want to play old DAOC PVP mechanics..... GO PLAY DAOC. This is RIFT. They are not the same. I dont know why people even post stupid ideas like these even thinking that developers glance at these boards
    Rage much kid ?

    "Eradicating your buffs since May 11th 2011"

  13. #13
    Telaran
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    Trolls lol. Luckily I always carry a ready supply of fire and acid. When defeated you can make sure they don't regenerate and come back for more. Of course forums are easy mode and you respawn quickly .

  14. #14
    Champion of Telara Telal's Avatar
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    1) Agree
    2) agree
    3) Disagree - hated positionals
    4) somewhat agree
    5) it's like that now, those of us who heal to help the team, are pure healing, My hardest hitting "dps" is a 600 crit, if i'm lucky
    6) no, never again, stick is bad
    7) Agree 100%, a block is a block, it's always backwards, i think block should negate damage, and you should take partial damage on a parry.

  15. #15
    Shadowlander Matael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sifilide View Post
    If you want to play old DAOC PVP mechanics..... GO PLAY DAOC. This is RIFT. They are not the same. I dont know why people even post stupid ideas like these even thinking that developers glance at these boards
    Someone must of failsauced their nap at Kindercare..

    DAoC will always be the pinnacle of RvR/PvP games. Yes it was a niche game, but for a PvP based game that's still going 8+ years later that's unheard of. There's a reason why it's still played by a few thousand a everyday. PvP/RvR are the End Game content for the game. If EA/Mythic hadn't mismanaged the game and left it to wane for a couple of years while the developed WAR then it would still have quite a healthy population.
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