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Thread: What Counterbalances Valor?

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    Telaran Abricetabrac's Avatar
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    Question What Counterbalances Valor?

    In defense of the idea that offering PvP gear with PvP stats like Valor or Resilience is necessary, many people argue, “Without the option of earning PvP gear, people who have raid level PvE gear would dominate PvP.

    This claim implies that the survivability of PvP gear is meant to directly counterbalance the offensive capabilities of PvE gear and, consequently, that PvP gear and PvE gear of similar levels provide comparable performance in PvP situations in their respective ways.

    If this is the case, then is it possible to effectively counter certain levels of Valor without simply acquiring similar levels of Valor? Or, put another way, can certain levels of Valor be effectively countered with certain levels of certain offensive stats?
    Last edited by Abricetabrac; 05-28-2011 at 06:59 AM.
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    General of Telara Pippington's Avatar
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    The idea would be yes, but not at the same gear level - the reality may differ.
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    It's that simple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abricetabrac View Post
    In defense of the idea that offering PvP gear with PvP stats like Valor or Resilience is necessary, many people argue, “Without the option of earning PvP gear, people who have raid level PvE gear would dominate PvP.

    This claim implies that the survivability of PvP gear is meant to directly counterbalance the offensive capabilities of PvE gear and, consequently, that PvP gear and PvE gear of similar levels provide comparable performance in PvP situations in their respective ways.

    If this is the case, then is it possible to effectively counter certain levels of Valor without simply acquiring similar levels of Valor? Or, put another way, can certain levels of Valor be effectively countered with certain levels of certain offensive stats?
    Raid geared folks have better weapons, trinkets, greater essences, etcetera. Valor isn't only supposed to counter raid gear, if it is meant to counter it at all. Plain and simple valor is a way to mitigate the massive amount of damage needed to PvE, and do raid content. Without Valor, damage is just too high. Most other games not only give a Valor type stat, they also reduce damage AND healing by 40% across the board so that the time to kill isn't so fast.


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    Rift Chaser
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    yeah there is a counter to valor, its called people rolling into wf's with legendary weapons. Rogues with no valor gear, 3 legendaries, a marksman spec and numerous sprints=their target dies.

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    I don't even get what you're talking about with counterbalance here, to be honest. If you PvP, you get gear that's better for PvP than something like raid gear. I don't see what else there is to it? In Rift's case the PvE players do get relic weapons and better planar essences, but that's about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abricetabrac View Post
    [FONT="Arial"][COLOR="deepskyblue"]
    This claim implies that the survivability of PvP gear is meant to directly counterbalance the offensive capabilities of PvE gear and, consequently, that PvP gear and PvE gear of similar levels provide comparable performance in PvP situations in their respective ways.
    That is only a part of the argument.
    Just as PvE exclusives would not want anyone to PvP their way to the top gear so that they can steam roll pve gives pvp people and advantage of not taking risks to get their gear, pvp plays feel that the best weaponry, gear, accessories, being PvE exclusive gives PvE an easy advantage of having the top gear without stepping foot in a pvp environment. And once they are geared to the T, those who are privy to PvP rather than PvE, will being at a statistical, weaponry, and tactical disadvantage due to inferior gear.

    Thus, valor.

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    Telaran Abricetabrac's Avatar
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    Arrow Re: Kristoph

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristoph View Post
    I don't even get what you're talking about with counterbalance here, to be honest. If you PvP, you get gear that's better for PvP than something like raid gear. I don't see what else there is to it?
    Here is what Scott Hartsman said about this issue a while back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Hartsman
    Q: Am I going to have to “grind” two sets of gear the entire time?

    A: No. Gear from each kind of play is competitive in the other side. It’s just not overpowering to the other side. It remains a great head start. We expect that the highest end PvP and PvE’ers will choose to care, but the majority won’t find that its existence impacts their gameplay in a negative way, since we are not balancing the game around any kind of E-Sport style Arenas, as other games have.

    Source: "On Valor and the Infamous 'PvP Only' Stat" by Chris C.

    Original Source: http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...y-couple-weeks [Link Broken]
    This leads me to believe that some form of counterbalance between PvP gear and PvE gear was meant to exist.

    But here is my point about this side of the issue: If people are against one group of people, namely raiders, dominating PvP, then would it not be logically inconsistent to oppose a hierarchy based on the quality of one's PvE gear and support a hierarchy based on how much Valor one has? Put another way, is not the central implication of the objection against raiders dominating PvP that people want balance and opportunity, not more hierarchy?
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    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abricetabrac View Post
    Here is what Scott Hartsman said about this issue a while back.



    This leads me to believe that some form of counterbalance between PvP gear and PvE gear was meant to exist.

    But here is my point about this side of the issue: If people are against one group of people, namely raiders, dominating PvP, then would it not be logically inconsistent to oppose a hierarchy based on the quality of one's PvE gear and support a hierarchy based on how much Valor one has? Put another way, is not the central implication of the objection against raiders dominating PvP that people want balance and opportunity, not more hierarchy?
    You are stating that the central implication of pvp gear was to provide balance purely against raid gear. The pvp gear is designed to be a reward for people who pvp and makes them better at pvp (main focus) but which could potentially be part of a pve gear set. The pve gear is designed to be a reward for people who pve (main focus) but which could potentially part of a pvp gear-set. Scott never stated that PvP gear was created to balance out against raid gear, just that either gear set would allow you "head start" in that content.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abricetabrac View Post
    Or, put another way, can certain levels of Valor be effectively countered with certain levels of certain offensive stats?

    If im reading the question right, the main way to counter a pvp player's Valor, is to also level up your pvp Rank until you can put more points into a PVP Spec, which offers increased hit/dmg to players if you choose to go that route. As far as PVE ways to counter Valor....uhh....get better weapons?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abricetabrac View Post
    This leads me to believe that some form of counterbalance between PvP gear and PvE gear was meant to exist.
    I did not get that from his statement. Basically, it looked like he stated that at 50 through regular/perhaps T1 - that a player would not need to farm two types of gear. Obviously once you got to T2 or higher, you could not use the PvP gear (higher level, per his statement). In a similar fashion, one could surmise that at R3+ one may have found their T2 gear beginning to lose meaning (did not quite happen like that until later). T2+ you'll need PvE gear. R5-6, you'll want a mix of PvP/PvE gear.

    As Visions stated, Valor exists because of the requirements of PvE damage. It is Trion's attempt to handle what I consider to be a design flaw in their PvE (a very common one shared by many computer games as opposed to what was offered with pen and paper)...

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