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Thread: Crowd Control needs to be completely revamped

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    Rift Master Click's Avatar
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    Default Crowd Control needs to be completely revamped

    CCs pre-1.2 were terrible and has ruined the fun in PvP for most people. You could chain CCs and keep people in a constant state of helplessness for entire fights / encounters. Perma-snares, stun/disarm locks, stunned then feared for 9-13 seconds when 2 Warriors spammed Bull Rush > Battlefield Intimidation, squirreled, then storm shackled for 15+ seconds. I could go on and on, but most PvP'ers already know how bad CCs were pre-1.2.

    Well, Trion finally decided to do something about it, after 2 and a half months of complaints from the majority of the Rift PvP community. However, their solution to the completely broken CCs in this game is a lazy and bad solution. CCs went from spamming whatever CCs you had whenever the cooldown was up, to now being a random chance whether or not your CCs will be fully effective, half as effective, or completely useless. Since we don't have raid queues for WFs, we're reliant upon 5-15 random players that still spam their CCs whenever they feel like it. More likely than not, your CCs will be useless because there's no way to coordinate CC usage with PUGs in WF.

    Instead of properly balancing CCs for each soul, Trion decided to just lump together 7 friggin' CC types into 1 group and 3 other CC types into another group. This patch made any skill involved with timing CCs at crucial moments, completely pointless in group PvP battles.

    For example, you see that overpowered Cleric or Mage casting a 2 second spell and you want to silence him, knock him back, or stun him. IMMUNITY. That's right, he's most likely going to be immune because someone already stunned him 15 seconds ago, and prior to that, he was mezzed or feared. Now your CC is on cooldown and whatever spell they wanted to cast went through. You've just wasted a CC and 1 GCD because other random players like to spam their CCs whenever they feel like it.

    Don't get me wrong, I like the fact that CCs aren't nearly as annoying and game-breaking as they used to be. The Break Free buff is also a welcomed, long overdue change. My complaint is that CCs are now completely based on luck and randomness. The only time you know your CCs will be fully effective, is when players have just (re)spawned; their DR/immunity timers are reset. Or if you're in a 1v1 situation far from the group battle(s) going on elsewhere.

    This is what I personally think Trion should have done to balance CCs: First, ALL CCs should be moved much further up on the soul trees (except for maybe Dominator CCs and stealth CCs), so that people can't use specs that have multiple powerful CCs they can chain together back-to-back-to-back. CC durations of each skill / spell should be lowered more. No CC should last for longer than 4 seconds at full effectiveness, with diminishing return (2 seconds) kicking in if the same CC type is used within the next 20 seconds. Each CC cooldown should be at either 1 or 2 minutes, depending on how powerful they are.

    Fear, particularly Battlefield Intimidation, needs to be drastically changed. An AoE CC that lasts for 6 seconds, has a large radius, cannot be broken on damage, has no limit to the amount of players it effects, only takes 11 points to obtain, and is on a short 30 second cooldown is extremely overpowered. I can't believe Trion has allowed this skill to be abused so much, ever since beta. Even after 1.2, it is still possible for 2 Warriors to Fear bomb an entire raid (if they're close to each other) back to back and keep them Feared up to 9 seconds. After the immunity is over with, their cooldown is only 6 seconds away from being ready again.

    Trion devs may or may not read this thread, but my hope is that they do and come to realize that their lazy solution to CCs in 1.2 is not the proper way to fix CCs in this game.

  2. #2
    Shadowlander
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    Trion used a "Daoc Like" system that is a well known , quite effective system with about 10 years of testing on one of the best pvp games ever made, the only thing they could do to improve the system is put an icon on chars that show if they are immune or not to CC , that way someone could choose to use CCs or not .... nothing else is need Imho


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    Rift Master Click's Avatar
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    They could have and should have done a whole lot more to fix the CC situation in this game. What they did instead has now made Dominators obsolete and caused the effectiveness of CCs in this game to be a crapshoot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Von Diakonov View Post
    Trion used a "Daoc Like" system that is a well known , quite effective system with about 10 years of testing on one of the best pvp games ever made, the only thing they could do to improve the system is put an icon on chars that show if they are immune or not to CC , that way someone could choose to use CCs or not .... nothing else is need Imho
    No they didnt. DAoC did not have CC immunity was not shared between Mez/Stun/Root. Also, there was not snare immunity on rogue garrote, because they realized that melee classes needed to be able to spam a snare to keep in range (same with all melee snares, they could be spammed repeatedly).

    1.2 Needs to take the DR and put them on INDIVIDUAL CC TYPES. Fear/Mez, sure give them the same DR, but SAP / STUN? KNOCKBACK/STUN? that just doesnt make any sense, and is poor design.
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    or else what?
    Don't mind me, I'm just being an idiot.

    What you did there, I see it.

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    Soulwalker
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    hey guys i play a cleric i love these changes because i can run around and kite 5 rogues while i heal other people. Iam sooo glad i cant be cc'd for 20 secs straight because thats the only way to stop my healing. I also love the ****ty healing reduction debuffs in this game because they tickle me so. Thanks trion for making me so powerful i love you

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    Sez
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    Quote Originally Posted by illii View Post
    hey guys i play a cleric i love these changes because i can run around and kite 5 rogues while i heal other people. Iam sooo glad i cant be cc'd for 20 secs straight because thats the only way to stop my healing. I also love the ****ty healing reduction debuffs in this game because they tickle me so. Thanks trion for making me so powerful i love you
    2/10

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    Rift Master Click's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewk View Post
    Also, there was not snare immunity on rogue garrote, because they realized that melee classes needed to be able to spam a snare to keep in range (same with all melee snares, they could be spammed repeatedly).
    Perma-snares shouldn't exist in a PvP game. It needed to be changed, but not like what it is now. Melee classes have been given the shaft yet again post-1.2.

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    aux
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    I think the problem is people saying 'CC' when they mean 'Stun', and Trion bringing a nuclear nerfbomb instead of a normal nerfbat. DR needs to removed from nearly everything that's not a stun, silence, or polymorph.
    I'm so BORED

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Von Diakonov View Post
    Trion used a "Daoc Like" system that is a well known , quite effective system with about 10 years of testing on one of the best pvp games ever made, the only thing they could do to improve the system is put an icon on chars that show if they are immune or not to CC , that way someone could choose to use CCs or not .... nothing else is need Imho
    DAoC like? maybe as far as DR and immunity. However, not EVERY class had multiple insta CC options in DAoC and PvP was not instanced. Each realm had a Main CC class. You couldn't DPS, Heal, CC, Tank, Buff no matter what class you chose. However, now people want to be able to solo, and game devs want them to be able to b/c it means more subscriptions and people will stay whether or not they make frineds to play with.

    To the OPs point, in DAoC people knew the value of CC. Since trion made every soul have a stun, root, snare, mez of some type and made them mainly insta cast and no DR at launch every moron spams there inferior CCs b/c they don't know how not to. Also you can not coordinate and use them judiciously, because there is no raid Qs for WFs. Since there are no raid Qs you have to be able to coordinate 2 or 3 five man groups all Qin within a few seconds of each other to MAYBE all get teh same pop. And even then this only works on the under populated side.

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    Rift Master Click's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aux View Post
    I think the problem is people saying 'CC' when they mean 'Stun', and Trion bringing a nuclear nerfbomb instead of a normal nerfbat. DR needs to removed from nearly everything that's not a stun, silence, or polymorph.
    AoE Fear is the most overpowered and annoying of all the CCs IMO.

    Especially Battlefield Intimidation like I detailed in my original post.

    DR for ALL CCs needs to exist in a CC-heavy game like Rift. Trion should have properly balanced / nerfed each CC and CC type with their own DR timers, durations, and cooldowns, instead of throwing them all into 2 category groups.
    Last edited by Click; 05-14-2011 at 11:32 AM.

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    Rift Master Click's Avatar
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    I wish a dev would respond about the feedback people have been giving regarding patch 1.2...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Click View Post
    I wish a dev would respond about the feedback people have been giving regarding patch 1.2...
    Yea. If they just drop the groupings for DR, and let each CC TYPE have its own DR (fear/mez/poly/blind/etc all in a group, stun, knockback, snare all SEPARATE) that would MAKE SENSE.

    right now it doesnt make any sense that if i use Lost Hope to catch someone on a horse out of combat that my IN COMBAT stun is going to be halved during the fight.

    The groupings just dont make sense for PvP...
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    The problems are two-fold:

    1) The grouping of so many cc abilities together for immunity is too crude. Some are comparing to Daoc but it is nothing like Daoc. In that game there was separate immunities for mezz, root, stun, snare and nearsight (that games equivalent to silence) and these immunities lasted usually 30s *after* the original effect wore off (not from when the original effect was applied as in Rift). If Rift doesn't want separate immunities they should at very least group immunity into mezz & polymorph, silence & fear, root & snare, stuns.

    2) Too many classes have minor cc abilities which are being spammed and wrecking the chances of classes with major cc abilities being able to use them. Trion should remove the minor cc components of many spammable abilities, so that only the cc that counts causes immunity. And until they do, players need to stop using their ineffective cc (not going to happen I know, but still).

  15. #15
    Shadowlander
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    Well, 1.2 is better than pre 1.2 as far as CC goes... but you're right that they went about it the complete wrong way and SEVERELY overnerfed CC.

    What should have happened is certain souls should have lost their stuns/silences, etc. and as the op said had the point req. raised. This blanket fix for every class, as if CC benefits every single soul, and every single spec *equally* is utterly ludicrous. I've honestly never seen more of a complete sham when it comes to "PvP" balancing as nerfing an entire aspect of PvP because ONLY certain specs could stunlock you into oblivion. Well, now the dom soul is useless, the stormcaller soul is bugged to all hell, and there is NO WAY you are going to kill my warlock/chloro while I'm out healing your dmg, sac health > mana, absorbing all the dmg plus putting up dmg shields. If I fight to kill you, maybe, but if I fight to live it simply is not possible to outdmg a chloro/warlock with infinite mana and heals with your silly little 2x per 30 second stun, and let's not even talk about slapping on some PvP armor.
    Last edited by Sagius; 05-20-2011 at 07:34 AM.

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