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Thread: Not Fully Understanding the Premade Problem

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaine View Post
    The real issue is premades should only be able to fight other premades.
    fixed
    Last edited by Dominmatric; 05-06-2011 at 01:08 AM.
    TL;DR
    Switching to a different profession is no different than starting a new role at 50, Easily learned. Might as well start at Rank 1 PvP on PvP servers.


    Also, the tab targeting needs to be fixed with two things.
    1.) It has no real selected cycle through the enemies in los, it goes randomly through them, it also prioritizes pets.
    2.)It will sometimes tab through, say, 2 pets 6 times (meaning three rotations for two pets) while enemies that are players are in los, it will do this for player targets too (targeting is random with no kind of tab rythm/cycle/order to go through almost full teams of enemies in los). Give players numbers before their names depending on where they are located at in their raid, and let all people know and see these numbers, and tab cycles through those numbers in order to all enemies in range. Then pets if no players are in range.
    3.)I also think minor obstructions that shouldn't, do play a role in who you can tab target, which adds up with the previous problems making it become complicated to target at times.
    http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...ght=imageshack

    Thank you for pretty much fixing the nearest target button, it's noticeable.

  2. #17
    Plane Walker Method's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaine View Post
    Anyone telling you otherwise are full of themselves. Wow arena's are skill based because they take away the gear and group composition part out. (ever tried arena's without pvp gear )

    Not sure if troll.

  3. #18
    Ascendant Vaine's Avatar
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    what part of that is trolling? The people that say arena's aren't skill based (as 'skilled' as an mmo can get), sure did not play at the top level.
    Last edited by Vaine; 05-06-2011 at 01:10 AM.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaine View Post
    what part of that is trolling? The people that say arena's aren't skill based (as 'skilled' as an mmo can get), sure did not play at the top level.
    The arenas I came from helped me play by giving me my gear (that was max level) but making me buy my skills by killing people.

    To think that an mmo has to be gear based is wrong. I think rifts directors might think along those lines and it doesn't make for great pvp at all even though i don't mind grinding my pvp gear, just don't make me grind 500 got dam pve levels for no reason without giving me pvp gear through that pve fest, while ruining pvp at the same time with the same system that is ruining my gameplay. I don't really want to go into it much more than that, but the bottom line is that there are better ways to make an mmo skill based, and it includes tossing the idea of making it where certain gear is unobtainable to new players unless that gear is purely cosmetic.
    Last edited by Dominmatric; 05-06-2011 at 01:16 AM.
    TL;DR
    Switching to a different profession is no different than starting a new role at 50, Easily learned. Might as well start at Rank 1 PvP on PvP servers.


    Also, the tab targeting needs to be fixed with two things.
    1.) It has no real selected cycle through the enemies in los, it goes randomly through them, it also prioritizes pets.
    2.)It will sometimes tab through, say, 2 pets 6 times (meaning three rotations for two pets) while enemies that are players are in los, it will do this for player targets too (targeting is random with no kind of tab rythm/cycle/order to go through almost full teams of enemies in los). Give players numbers before their names depending on where they are located at in their raid, and let all people know and see these numbers, and tab cycles through those numbers in order to all enemies in range. Then pets if no players are in range.
    3.)I also think minor obstructions that shouldn't, do play a role in who you can tab target, which adds up with the previous problems making it become complicated to target at times.
    http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...ght=imageshack

    Thank you for pretty much fixing the nearest target button, it's noticeable.

  5. #20
    Ascendant Acex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaine View Post
    The real issue is the gear difference and pvp rank difference, the pug vs premade is secondary because it's usually the premades with the better gear.

    People think it's the pre-mades owning them but in reality it's the t2/gsb/rank 5/6 gear.

    remember in mmo's:
    gear > group composition > coordination and skill

    Anyone telling you otherwise are full of themselves. Wow arena's are skill based because they take away the gear and group composition part out. (ever tried arena's without pvp gear )


    premades vs premades wont even work because there are so many casual guilds coming to 50 in their blues/t1 crap. Rated warfront's is really the best solution.

    I proposed an alternative 'give losers a buff' solution.
    No it's premades.
    Good r1 r2 premade will pwnz r5 r6 pug.

  6. #21
    Ascendant Vaine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acex View Post
    No it's premades.
    Good r1 r2 premade will pwnz r5 r6 pug.
    if all the pugs where in r5-r6, they would not. If one or 2 people were in r5-r6 of course the premade would win.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acex View Post
    No it's premades.
    Good r1 r2 premade will pwnz r5 r6 pug.
    And a rank 3 premade will probably destroy a balance ranked pug (some 1s some 6s)

    Gear does play a role, but a core premade makes a significant difference.

    Which is why unlike the pve servers on my server that think having 300 people are cool and brag about it...

    I wouldn't want no more than about 35 people in my guild so we had a core team that practiced pvp with eachother all the time. Would be nice for those guys to have the flexibility to reroll for pvp premades.
    TL;DR
    Switching to a different profession is no different than starting a new role at 50, Easily learned. Might as well start at Rank 1 PvP on PvP servers.


    Also, the tab targeting needs to be fixed with two things.
    1.) It has no real selected cycle through the enemies in los, it goes randomly through them, it also prioritizes pets.
    2.)It will sometimes tab through, say, 2 pets 6 times (meaning three rotations for two pets) while enemies that are players are in los, it will do this for player targets too (targeting is random with no kind of tab rythm/cycle/order to go through almost full teams of enemies in los). Give players numbers before their names depending on where they are located at in their raid, and let all people know and see these numbers, and tab cycles through those numbers in order to all enemies in range. Then pets if no players are in range.
    3.)I also think minor obstructions that shouldn't, do play a role in who you can tab target, which adds up with the previous problems making it become complicated to target at times.
    http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...ght=imageshack

    Thank you for pretty much fixing the nearest target button, it's noticeable.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaine View Post
    The real issue is the gear difference and pvp rank difference, the pug vs premade is secondary because it's usually the premades with the better gear.

    People think it's the pre-mades owning them but in reality it's the t2/gsb/rank 5/6 gear.
    I have to disagree here.
    I'm close to only playing premades since the guild I'm in only consists of PvP'ers and I like playing with everyone. While 50% of our guild is R6, there's a good part of the guild that's R3 or R4. Being R3 myself (yay, slack ) I can say that gear only helps so much in these things; my healing is still top2 everytime, my teammates still die less and we still kick arse... (And yeah, I know R3, martyr, bleh, but the same went for R2 and even R1). It's not because I'm some brilliant player; it's because premades (atleast the ones I run) coordinate and look out for each other. Peeling from healers? Never bothered to ask, it was a given once I mention "rogue", "help" or anything in that fashion.

    That and in the current state of PvP gear, PvE geared players (there are enough of those in WF's) are quite better geared then PvP geared players.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaine View Post
    Anyone telling you otherwise are full of themselves. Wow arena's are skill based because they take away the gear and group composition part out. (ever tried arena's without pvp gear )
    This is not me being full of myself, like I said, I'm R3 and no where near being "the best kick *** PvP player", it's close to the opposite actually. This is about people thinking that rushing in without thinking, mashing their buttons (or macros if they actually bothered to do that) wanting to have the same chance of winning as a group that only PvP's, is dedicated and works hard on coordination, strategies and playing as a team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaine View Post
    I proposed an alternative 'give losers a buff' solution.
    So punish coordination, teamwork and thinking and reward running in without a plan, backup or anything? GG.
    <Cookie Squad> Okamo | Guardian @ Sagespire EU | Cleric PvP healer and allround nub

  9. #24
    Ascendant Vaine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dominmatric View Post
    I don't really want to go into it much more than that, but the bottom line is that there are better ways to make an mmo skill based, and it includes tossing the idea of making it where certain gear is unobtainable to new players unless that gear is purely cosmetic.
    You're obviously a casual so you want the game more casual and I can understand that. 80% of the mmo players are casuals so you're the majority. The problem with being casual is that most casuals don't develop the skills needed to play their character properly what's worse is they fall far behind in the gear curve too. This is a double whammy for the casuals and makes them not want to pvp.

    The problem isn't the gear. It's an mmo it's about character progression. If people don't outgear you in pvp gear, they will certainly do it in pve gear. Asking for the removal of character progression metric (aka gear) is a fundamental misunderstanding of the mmo business model. If you removed pvp gear, Trion would lose their pvp player base.

    The solution is too allow casual players to be able to complete with players of the same skill level. Again rated bg's are the best solution, but won't seem to work with server infrastructure.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by salp View Post
    I have to disagree here.
    I'm close to only playing premades since the guild I'm in only consists of PvP'ers and I like playing with everyone. While 50% of our guild is R6, there's a good part of the guild that's R3 or R4. Being R3 myself (yay, slack ) I can say that gear only helps so much in these things; my healing is still top2 everytime, my teammates still die less and we still kick arse... (And yeah, I know R3, martyr, bleh, but the same went for R2 and even R1). It's not because I'm some brilliant player; it's because premades (atleast the ones I run) coordinate and look out for each other. Peeling from healers? Never bothered to ask, it was a given once I mention "rogue", "help" or anything in that fashion.

    That and in the current state of PvP gear, PvE geared players (there are enough of those in WF's) are quite better geared then PvP geared players.
    You're rank 3, what are the other members of your team? Also your team is rank 6 because they did not have to fight anyone higher rank than them. They were always on top of the food chain.

    This mean you took the gear part out of the equation.

    gear > group composition > coordination - skill

    became just

    group composition > coordination/skill

    group composition and coordination/skill means premages >>>> pugs.

    Tell you what. PvP in blues and without the pvp soul and see how well your group does.

    Quote Originally Posted by salp View Post
    So punish coordination, teamwork and thinking and reward running in without a plan, backup or anything? GG.
    So does your rank 3-6 team enjoy slaughtering pugs. Mine doesn't. I'm tired of 500-10 games. This is not pvp it's favor farming.
    Last edited by Vaine; 05-06-2011 at 01:42 AM.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmeh1993 View Post
    First off, yes I have been steamrolled by a premade. So, I have to ask..why are they doing so much better than a PuG? This is a serious question. And I have reasons why it technically shouldn't matter much..but the whole point of this is to really figure out what is going on.

    Ok, so these premades are just people group joining. They aren't getting a buff for doing this. Their armor isnt automatically better for hitting the button. So, 1v1 on a premade guy..you should be on the same footing right? So why is it a big deal to where one group is often spawn-camped by the enemy team? They're not infinitely better statistically, so there's no excuse for a PuG to just fall apart.

    Yeah, I get it..they're organized sometimes. A guild joins together and hops on vent. Well, voice chat is easier..but we can still type to each other. It's not like one side has communication and the other doesn't. So, in theory, the effect should be minimal. However, it seems that everyone is WORKING TOGETHER.

    Now, I'm taking this from a question and making it a theory. The people in a premade know what to do in a WF. They know to hit as a group, they know where to go, they know which roles are needed and they bring them. The people in premades are the dedicated PvPers who know what they are doing..they joined a guild to be around other people who also know what they're doing. They make sure they have good gear, plans, and team setup. Those who are so dedicated to PvP to make sure they're at their best..are the better players! So really it just becomes a battle of "more skilled vs. less skilled".

    Is it worth complaining about that a more skilled team is winning all the time? Maybe. However, instead of banishing those who deserve to win, people should be learning how to play. Disclaimer: I'm one of those in PuGs constantly ganked by a premade. However, when you think about it..those guys are putting more effort into it, they know what they are doing, and they're good at PvP. Look at what your team is doing in a PuG. Are you surprised that the other team wins with such a skill gap from side to side?

    My theory: Premades are only good because 75% of players who don't look for a premade don't know what they're doing/just generally suck. Those 25% come on the forums to complain because they're stuck with the garbage.

    Am I wrong?

    Yes, because you're looking at it the wrong way.


    The question is NOT; should pre-made win vs PuGs - clearly they should.

    The question IS; should solo players have no choice but to queue with/against groups of players - clearly they should not.




    Adding a solo queue (with a random integer to break up queue together queuing) AND a everything else queue would solve everything in this thread.
    Last edited by Pippington; 05-06-2011 at 01:44 AM.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaine View Post
    You're rank 3, what are the other members of your team? Also your team is rank 6 because they did not have to fight anyone higher rank than them
    Most are R6 because they spent a ****load of time grinding WF's since day 1. Want to see people in full PvP gear with green (or any) essences in their sigil, we have enough of those. Hardly any of our members PvE, at all, not even if it brings a gain in PvP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaine View Post
    so you took the gear part out of the equation.
    gear > group composition > coordination - skill
    became just
    group composition > coordination - skill
    group composition means premages >>>> pugs.
    It's not composition per say (yes, composition does play a big part, for example there are examples we got stomped by pugs because we had casters and they were full of rogues and VK's). Our group composition works like this: "/g Who wants an invite, X spots left in group", first come, first serve. We're not looking for the "great" setup, we're looking for playing PvP with guildies. If that means there are no healers in the group and they are playing solo or in a different group, so be it.
    In my experience, in general it's: coordination > composition > gear > individual payer skill. But there are many situations in this story that could easily change it. If you pack casters and they have rogues and VK's, you're screwed. If you have chloro's / bards as healers and they have high burst, you're screwed. Etc. You can't generalise these equations, there are too many variables.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vaine View Post
    Tell you what. PvP in blues and without the pvp soul and see how well your group does.
    If we can find/still have the blues, I'm actually up for the challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaine View Post
    So does your rank 3-6 team enjoy slaughtering pugs. Mine doesn't.
    I don't enjoy roflstomping pugs and I do enjoy challenges. Playing as a premade never meant only easy games. I agree that there are games where we just blast through, but playing with 5 people in a premade doesn't guarentee a win, esp. not since you have between 5 to 15 random players on your side.
    On the other hand, I have a screenshot of a 1000-0 score on codex - no defiant caps, noone on our side died (which included 10 randoms by definition), and I did have fun in that match but it was actually hard work for our team to keep everyone up all the time and the opposition down. One of the few matches I had great fun while roflstomping a group.
    Last edited by salp; 05-06-2011 at 01:58 AM.
    <Cookie Squad> Okamo | Guardian @ Sagespire EU | Cleric PvP healer and allround nub

  13. #28
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    Queue'ing solo should not place you in a warfront against opponents that queue'd as a group.

    It's that simple.
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  14. #29
    General of Telara Pippington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartolomeus D View Post
    Queue'ing solo should not place you in a warfront against opponents that queue'd as a group.

    It's that simple.


    Yup. But there'd be no posts in this forum if they did it.

  15. #30
    Ascendant Vaine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by salp View Post
    ...
    I just noticed you are in cookie squad. Our premades have clashed and we always get good games. These are the kinds of games that I like.

    I just wanted to point out things from the other side of spectrum. Not every guild will have geared people with high gear. Few casual guilds should be 50 now, and I feel for them. My favorite is the 'angels caidos'. A premade but because of their crap gear we just farm them like nothing.

    Keep an open mind. See you in the battlefield.
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