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Thread: [NEEDED PVP CHANGES] Things that needed to improve gameplay for the majority.

  1. #1
    Ascendant Visions's Avatar
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    Default [NEEDED PVP CHANGES] Things that needed to improve gameplay for the majority.

    1. Global Queues

    This really is a given. By allowing global queues you'll cut down the long wait times many are experiencing. This will also allow for other, much needed changes without the queues becoming longer.

    2. Segragated Queues.

    Because of the gear gap at level 50, the hot topic is that Rank 5, and Rank 6 players have a far too easy a time farming those of lower ranks. This is going to be a tricky one, because you have various different views on this one, so I'm going to break it up into "a.", and "b." to address the individually. The solutions to this problem are pretty dynamic, and each brings with it, its own problems.

    A change does need to happen, because a game remains successful by not only picking up new players, but also by keeping those players. We're all experiening longer queue times now because lower ranked players are either quitting, or not queueing up for warfronts because they're tired of being farmed.
    2a.
    Already in the other tiers 10-19, 20-29, 30-39, 40-49 new players entering into those tiers get a buff to bring them up to an even playing field. This kind of buff is probably the easiest solution to this problem.

    I would like to argue that it creates a problem where getting gear really becomes pointless at level 50, where gear is generally the driving backbone to end game content. Even though I bring that argument to surface, those who support that as a countering argument also need to recognize that the gear keeps its strength in open world PvP, meaning Warfronts than just become the Expert, and Raid choices of PvP players.

    The other option is to segregate Rank 5s, and Rank 6s from the rest of the level 50s.

    I would like to argue firmly against this because it prevents people like me from playing with say, my wife if I convince her to play again, and also prevents us from playing with new friends, or family members who pick up the game later.
    2b.
    The hotest topic is the fight between PUGs, and Premades.

    I admit my bias here because I run almost always, in a premade. My bias is in regards to me becoming bored with easy, free wins. I play games, like I play sports, for the challenge. If there is no challenge, I quickly become bored, and move onto something else. The fair thing to do, so that premades can find the challenges they want, and so that PUGs are not feeling farmed is to truly seperate PUGs, from Premades.

    But what is a PUG, and what is a Premade? In the dynamic group design that Trion has created, that brings us a 5 man group, 10 man raid, or even a 20 man raid. The definition is already in front of us. When Trion brings us raid queuing for warfronts, and they've already said they were going to, we now can define premades as being any full 5 man groups, or greater numbers. It really is that simple.

    Yes, that means any group with 4, or less players gets to queue with PUGs.

    3. Open World Objectives

    As it is now, you can go a long time without finding people to fight, or finding a challenging fight, and back in BETA, I said this would happen. In BETA I tried to get everyone to recognize that without reasons, or areas that brought people together for the sole reason to fight, open world PvP would become lack luster, and boring.

    But do not fall into a state of depression, because in this area, the skies are the limit. There are a number of things that can be done; like a Thidranki style region for each leveling tier, random PvP world events that could be from simple tasks in each region, to as dynamic as a Defiant call to siege Sanctum, where each world even gives out rewards, like Rifts, or major invasions give out.
    Last edited by Visions; 05-04-2011 at 05:05 AM.


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    Ascendant Indasoth's Avatar
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    Agreed on all points. Especially the pugs vs. premades issue.

  3. #3
    Soulwalker
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    Default Pvp@50

    Good points, but an issue I see with warfronts and pvp in general really, is the strong imbalance of classes. I'd be lying if I said I enjoyed warrior pvp. If I fight a melee, I pray I'm a tank hybrid. If I fight a caster, I pray I'm champion and that I can 'global' that person because there is no warrior healing - something that seems a bit op at this stage in the game. If I fight a healer, there's no point. They could easily afk for a full minute, come back and press 2 buttons to be at full health again. Lastly, and I heard there were going to be changes on this (so you can disregard but I feel the need to get this off my chest) if I fight a pyro - haha JK, no fight there - pyros kill anything in 3 button smashes.

    TLDR: I need a WAAAAAHmbulance because melee pvp at 50 is just so far behind its not even funny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dosez View Post
    Good points, but an issue I see with warfronts and pvp in general really, is the strong imbalance of classes. I'd be lying if I said I enjoyed warrior pvp. If I fight a melee, I pray I'm a tank hybrid. If I fight a caster, I pray I'm champion and that I can 'global' that person because there is no warrior healing - something that seems a bit op at this stage in the game. If I fight a healer, there's no point. They could easily afk for a full minute, come back and press 2 buttons to be at full health again. Lastly, and I heard there were going to be changes on this (so you can disregard but I feel the need to get this off my chest) if I fight a pyro - haha JK, no fight there - pyros kill anything in 3 button smashes.

    TLDR: I need a WAAAAAHmbulance because melee pvp at 50 is just so far behind its not even funny.
    That's an entirely different thread all together.


    MMORPG played: Everquest I, Dark Age of Camelot, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Everquest II, Aion, Warhammer Online, and Fallen Earth (BETA only).
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    Telaran
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    I am a very big fan of this thread.

    It's goal oriented, with well thought out suggestions.

    as long as the discussion is based around his points I think this thread should deliver some great ideas.

    I'm on board with all of those. Open world will definatly need some love. Right now invasion events feel like who can wrangle the biggest swarm of players with little thought involved.

    I think Symmetrical World Events might be a possible point of fun contention. WAR tried it (Instanced Capital City raids), but it never really worked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RattyZ View Post
    I am a very big fan of this thread.

    It's goal oriented, with well thought out suggestions.

    as long as the discussion is based around his points I think this thread should deliver some great ideas.

    I'm on board with all of those. Open world will definatly need some love. Right now invasion events feel like who can wrangle the biggest swarm of players with little thought involved.

    I think Symmetrical World Events might be a possible point of fun contention. WAR tried it (Instanced Capital City raids), but it never really worked.
    I would rather not see a instanced raid on Sanctum to be honest.


    MMORPG played: Everquest I, Dark Age of Camelot, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Everquest II, Aion, Warhammer Online, and Fallen Earth (BETA only).
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    Telaran
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    I only go to port scion now as its at least slightly less predictable. Normally the team with a pyro or 2 are assured a win.

    Its like fighting a team with a raid boss on it. Even with my gear they do ridiculous dmg hitting me harder than t2 expert bosses. How can 1 class be so far outside the rest of the classes and souls. It just doesnt make sense.
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    Prophet of Telara krilly's Avatar
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    Collision detection
    True los
    No conditional in macros

    Let's have real skill, not fireballs shooting out the *** and spamming macro while running through people flukeing backstabs
    Mage - steel cannon
    Rogue - tin pistol
    Warrior - glass machine gun
    Cleric - adamantium machine gun

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by krilly View Post
    No conditional in macros
    What conditions can you put into macros?

    Quote Originally Posted by krilly View Post
    Let's have real skill, not fireballs shooting out the *** and spamming macro while running through people flukeing backstabs
    Are you serious? In DnD, I'd say, casting a fireball directly behind me, three meters. Just because the caster can hit you when you're running mindlessly through the, or around them like a hyped up puppy, doesn't mean they're firing them from their ars. IT'S MAGIC AFTER ALL, not a damned rifle.
    Last edited by Visions; 05-04-2011 at 05:48 AM.


    MMORPG played: Everquest I, Dark Age of Camelot, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Everquest II, Aion, Warhammer Online, and Fallen Earth (BETA only).
    We all meet as equals on the battlefield, but we don't leave as such.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Visions View Post
    1. Global Queues


    But do not fall into a state of depression, because in this area, the skies are the limit.
    I am divided on the rank 5/6 people vs the new people. I don't know if I agree with buffing fresh players.

    I PvP for fun, but my major driving factor is "improving my character" (as it is with any rpg). If I step into a BG with my hp/damage buffed up to the levels of rank 5/6 characters...what's my motivation again? Just "having fun"? Each time I lose a match due to running with a bunch of knucklehead puggers, I say "well, at least I'm a bit closer to improving my character with better gear."
    Last edited by Saboth; 05-04-2011 at 05:48 AM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saboth View Post
    I am divided on the rank 5/6 people vs the new people. I don't know if I agree with buffing fresh players.

    I PvP for fun, but my major driving factor is "improving my character" (as it is with any rpg). If I step into a BG with my hp/damage buffed up to the levels of rank 5/6 characters...what's my motivation again? Just "having fun"? Each time I lose a match due to running with a bunch of knucklehead puggers, I say "well, at least I'm a bit closer to improving my character with better gear."
    My driving motivation is the need for a challenge. I could care less about anything else, so long as myself, and my opponent can give it our all, and are not bored with easy wins, but instead a fighting challenge that requires our complete attention the entire duration of the warfront.

    I get extremely bored when my side wins 1000 - 6.
    Last edited by Visions; 05-04-2011 at 05:51 AM.


    MMORPG played: Everquest I, Dark Age of Camelot, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Everquest II, Aion, Warhammer Online, and Fallen Earth (BETA only).
    We all meet as equals on the battlefield, but we don't leave as such.
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  12. #12
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Visions View Post
    I would rather not see a instanced raid on Sanctum to be honest.
    Right, which is why it didn't work.

    But at the same time, Realm population imbalances have been plaguing open world pvp (or rvr or whatever) for a long time, Asymmetrical PvP can be just as problematic to the planning required to pull off open world events.

    Admittedly, having something like an Instanced Raid on Sanctum (which sounds odd) would be pretty lame considering a successful alternative (like having 50% Defiant 50% Guardian on the realm).

    but then again, having zero raids on sanctum because the defiant would get decimated due to a 25% to 75% (1:3) or worse ratio...that's no good either.

  13. #13
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Visions View Post
    I get extremely bored when my side wins 1000 - 6.
    Just think of how badly the other side feels.

  14. #14
    Champion of Telara
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    3 out of 5 of these are covered by just letting you make a pvp rank 1 character on a pvp server.


    making them play one bracket by just making them rank one but be level one, is just trying to take another way around it.
    Last edited by Dominmatric; 05-04-2011 at 05:57 AM.
    TL;DR
    Switching to a different profession is no different than starting a new role at 50, Easily learned. Might as well start at Rank 1 PvP on PvP servers.


    Also, the tab targeting needs to be fixed with two things.
    1.) It has no real selected cycle through the enemies in los, it goes randomly through them, it also prioritizes pets.
    2.)It will sometimes tab through, say, 2 pets 6 times (meaning three rotations for two pets) while enemies that are players are in los, it will do this for player targets too (targeting is random with no kind of tab rythm/cycle/order to go through almost full teams of enemies in los). Give players numbers before their names depending on where they are located at in their raid, and let all people know and see these numbers, and tab cycles through those numbers in order to all enemies in range. Then pets if no players are in range.
    3.)I also think minor obstructions that shouldn't, do play a role in who you can tab target, which adds up with the previous problems making it become complicated to target at times.
    http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...ght=imageshack

    Thank you for pretty much fixing the nearest target button, it's noticeable.

  15. #15
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Visions View Post
    1. Global Queues

    This really is a given. By allowing global queues you'll cut down the long wait times many are experiencing. This will also allow for other, much needed changes without the queues becoming longer.

    2. Segragated Queues.

    Because of the gear gap at level 50, the hot topic is that Rank 5, and Rank 6 players have a far too easy a time farming those of lower ranks. This is going to be a tricky one, because you have various different views on this one, so I'm going to break it up into "a.", and "b." to address the individually. The solutions to this problem are pretty dynamic, and each brings with it, its own problems.

    A change does need to happen, because a game remains successful by not only picking up new players, but also by keeping those players. We're all experiening longer queue times now because lower ranked players are either quitting, or not queueing up for warfronts because they're tired of being farmed.
    2a.
    Already in the other tiers 10-19, 20-29, 30-39, 40-49 new players entering into those tiers get a buff to bring them up to an even playing field. This kind of buff is probably the easiest solution to this problem.

    I would like to argue that it creates a problem where getting gear really becomes pointless at level 50, where gear is generally the driving backbone to end game content. Even though I bring that argument to surface, those who support that as a countering argument also need to recognize that the gear keeps its strength in open world PvP, meaning Warfronts than just become the Expert, and Raid choices of PvP players.

    The other option is to segregate Rank 5s, and Rank 6s from the rest of the level 50s.

    I would like to argue firmly against this because it prevents people like me from playing with say, my wife if I convince her to play again, and also prevents us from playing with new friends, or family members who pick up the game later.
    2b.
    The hotest topic is the fight between PUGs, and Premades.

    I admit my bias here because I run almost always, in a premade. My bias is in regards to me becoming bored with easy, free wins. I play games, like I play sports, for the challenge. If there is no challenge, I quickly become bored, and move onto something else. The fair thing to do, so that premades can find the challenges they want, and so that PUGs are not feeling farmed is to truly seperate PUGs, from Premades.

    But what is a PUG, and what is a Premade? In the dynamic group design that Trion has created, that brings us a 5 man group, 10 man raid, or even a 20 man raid. The definition is already in front of us. When Trion brings us raid queuing for warfronts, and they've already said they were going to, we now can define premades as being any full 5 man groups, or greater numbers. It really is that simple.

    Yes, that means any group with 4, or less players gets to queue with PUGs.

    3. Open World Objectives

    As it is now, you can go a long time without finding people to fight, or finding a challenging fight, and back in BETA, I said this would happen. In BETA I tried to get everyone to recognize that without reasons, or areas that brought people together for the sole reason to fight, open world PvP would become lack luster, and boring.

    But do not fall into a state of depression, because in this area, the skies are the limit. There are a number of things that can be done; like a Thidranki style region for each leveling tier, random PvP world events that could be from simple tasks in each region, to as dynamic as a Defiant call to siege Sanctum, where each world even gives out rewards, like Rifts, or major invasions give out.
    Global ques will destroy the community as it did in wow, but i do see the point/need.

    The gear gap currently is due to PVE gear being superior to PVP. A rank 1 gsb/ros geared player will own a rank 6 pvp geared player. This will change in 1.2, but this is how it stands currently. Your gear argument currently is incorrect.

    Segregation removes the point of tiered pvp wfs.

    If you want competitive/fair gameplay, wait for arenas to come out. This is when real competitive pvp will shine. WF's are not for this type of gameplay, and to expect so is far fetched at best. I seriously doubt trion is going to split premades from pugs. Maybe with the arena patch, it will simply be this solution you are looking for. The arenas would be the warfronts we already have, but you must have a full raid/party in order to que. I would also add the requirement that you be rank 6.

    I agree. World pvp objectives need to be added. The best place to find this currently is raid rifts / invasions.

    Overall good, well thought out post. Although I disagree with alot of what you say

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