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Thread: The ultimate irony about PUG vs Premade argument

  1. #1
    Prophet of Telara
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    Default The ultimate irony about PUG vs Premade argument

    So I keep hearing the same arguments over and over again, and rather than trying to prove my POV to every raging clown out there, I wanna make a rather general post on the subject.

    Myth PvP is about fun.
    Ok, lets get serious here. We all wanna have fun, but honestly how many of you would queue for WFs if they offered nothing but the fun? No prestige. No favor. My guess is not too many, and that's a pretty generous estimate.
    The reason is quiet simple really. People need to be rewarded for something they do in game, otherwise they need to do other things for those rewards (such as running dungeons), and then it becomes less of a game and more of a job, and that is pretty much the opposite of fun.

    Myth Everyone is entitled to rewards.
    Absolutely not. If rewards (such as high end gear) would be easily available to everyone, then they wouldn't be rewards.
    Like wise rewards that are based on time spent are nothing more than another form of trading in-game items for real currency. Which takes the game out of the game.


    Lets review the basic conclusions here:
    1) People must be rewarded with in-game stuff for performing in-game tasks.
    2) People must be rewarded based on skill and/or effort they put into it.


    Now we get to the actual topic.

    Myth Casuals that "have life" just want to have fun.
    Lets imagine that separate queues were implemented. The average PUG that cried, trolled and screamed at the top of his lungs for this implementation has learned nothing.

    Therefore it is easy to conclude that with some minor deviations the win/loss rate of every casual PvPer is 50%. Now given two casual PvPers: one with r6 gear and one with r3 gear - what is the main (and only) factor in that difference? Common, anyone? You guessed it: TIME SPENT.

    Now what about the premades (assuming such form of PvP still exists)? It doesn't take much brain to figure that premades with higher skill and level of coordination will be rewarded much faster than both lower skill premades AND casuals that played solo queue (assuming comparable queue times).

    Ultimate irony
    The hardcore "no life" premade PvPers earn their rewards much faster, while not necessarily spending any more time playing (not counting initial investment on looking for a guild and figuring out builds).
    The casual life-having PvPers spend MORE time in game to achieve the same goals as the group above.

    The irony that a generic "no life" insult being thrown around so much is more likely applicable to the casual players who just want an easier time grinding for their PvP rank, which they feel entitled to, despite the fact they refuse the very notion of organizing and getting better at MMO PvP.



    I rest my case
    -- Trollhammer@Molinar

  2. #2
    Plane Touched
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    When did the massive misconception occur that "MMO" meant grouping only? Last time I checked, it was just a label to indicate this game is intended to have a very large population of players and large scale battles as opposed to traditional 8-16 man FPS shooters.

    Funny..sounds alot like a WF.

    Sounds to me like having WF's in an MMO is the wrong thing to do...as it takes the -real- meaning of MMO out of the equation.

  3. #3
    Plane Touched ginzo's Avatar
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    except you are completely wrong

    no lifers are called such not because they have played games fro x amount of years, its because simple mathematics dictates that if your grinding warfonts for 12 hours a day in ur uber premade you have very little time fro anything else in ur life except feeding and sleeping.

    so obviously ur life is devoid of any job or meaningfull social life otherwise you would have to devote some time to it.

    so casuals can spend 10 years slowly getting to any reward the no lifer can get in a few weeks if thats what it takes. However the casual can do it while earning a wage and having relationships with real people.
    the man who asks questions may be called an idiot for a while.... the man who asks none remains an idiot forever

    welcome to the land of MMO's where the jobless man is king, for time is the only true currency .

  4. #4
    Rift Chaser
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    i'm fine with premades vs. pugs. premades are going to win every time pretty much. that is why you make a premade.

    i'm not fine with someone's suggestion that premades should get the epic gear while pugs get blue gear.

    what i would like to see is an easier way to kick people out of pugs, especially those with diarrhea of the mouth.

  5. #5
    Shield of Telara Ferathka's Avatar
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    Wait there are actually real people outside the virtual world?!?!?!?!
    Stupid People P*** Me Off

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    Shield of Telara Duvain's Avatar
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    Interesting post.

    Stating something as a fact in large letters does not make it a fact.

    Stating your personal opinion as a fact does not make it a fact.

    My story, "I have personally PvP'd for fun in UO, DAOC, EvE and Lotro, any rewards were accepted but not required."

    There may or may not be others who enjoy PvP more than items, it is not for me to estimate how many have that opinion.

    I have no NEED for items or rewards, I play at the end of a days work for 5-6 hrs rather than watch TV, to me these are games. For me the reward is in the doing.

    Continuing....Your definitions of the words Casual and hardcore are interesting, but again, I have seen many different interpretations that may be more or less correct. Mostly people show their bias when they choose how they view these two words. I am done with the sermon....

    To the area where I most closely agree with the OP;

    Do I personally think many posters are inventing stories to support themselves gaining easier rewards?

    Yes I do on both sides of the arguments.

    OP, IMHO, Your case is not resolved, I doubt it ever will be. Good luck.
    Last edited by Duvain; 05-03-2011 at 05:27 PM.

  7. #7
    Rift Disciple
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    It has nothing to do with the PUG vs Premades argument, but yes, you have correctly identified a reason why calling people "no lifers" is a bad idea, and you even used the term "irony" for something that is actually ironic. You can't say fairer than that!

  8. #8
    Champion of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by liho1eye View Post
    So I keep hearing the same arguments over and over again, and rather than trying to prove my POV to every raging clown out there, I wanna make a rather general post on the subject.

    Myth PvP is about fun.
    Ok, lets get serious here. We all wanna have fun, but honestly how many of you would queue for WFs if they offered nothing but the fun? No prestige. No favor. My guess is not too many, and that's a pretty generous estimate.
    The reason is quiet simple really. People need to be rewarded for something they do in game, otherwise they need to do other things for those rewards (such as running dungeons), and then it becomes less of a game and more of a job, and that is pretty much the opposite of fun.
    I would still PVP. I don't PvP for gear, I get gear for PvP. Big difference.

    Myth Everyone is entitled to rewards.
    Absolutely not. If rewards (such as high end gear) would be easily available to everyone, then they wouldn't be rewards.
    Like wise rewards that are based on time spent are nothing more than another form of trading in-game items for real currency. Which takes the game out of the game.
    No, the issue is when you have to PvE in order to be competitive in PvP. Once again a big difference.

    And I didn't even bother reading the rest as you couldn't even properly identify the problems. Which btw, were largely already addressed in 1.2.

    The premade vs pug argument has nothing to do with any of this.

  9. #9
    Plane Touched Macrocosm93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by liho1eye View Post
    So I keep hearing the same arguments over and over again, and rather than trying to prove my POV to every raging clown out there, I wanna make a rather general post on the subject.

    Myth PvP is about fun.
    Ok, lets get serious here. We all wanna have fun, but honestly how many of you would queue for WFs if they offered nothing but the fun? No prestige. No favor. My guess is not too many, and that's a pretty generous estimate.
    The reason is quiet simple really. People need to be rewarded for something they do in game, otherwise they need to do other things for those rewards (such as running dungeons), and then it becomes less of a game and more of a job, and that is pretty much the opposite of fun.
    This makes no sense. If people are only PVPing to get gear they are doing it wrong as PVP gear is only useful in PVP. You're putting the cart before the horse kind of. Prestige and favor is there to give people a goal to work towards but its not an end in and of itself.

  10. #10
    Ascendant BishopX's Avatar
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    I play MORE than any person on my server who is in a premade.
    the guys in the premade actually only que only when they have a group... I que solo all the time.
    they are out earning me in points yet I play more... in fact I spend almost double the time online in warfronts than some of the defiant on my server..
    please tell me how this is fair?

    scrubs who I used to beat up 2v1 are now almost r6 with me?
    i EARNED my ranks by bashing heads and rumbeling with wins and losses. these guys are just sitting at a spawn steamrolling pugs and getting rawarded for it.

  11. #11
    General of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by liho1eye View Post
    Ok, lets get serious here. We all wanna have fun, but honestly how many of you would queue for WFs if they offered nothing but the fun? No prestige. No favor. My guess is not too many, and that's a pretty generous estimate.
    I would. I personally despise the idea of needing rewards to have fun. Playing the game itself is my reward and that's all I need. As to rewards, I could not care less. As to premade and PUG? I don't really care about that either. If I'm in a PUG, going up against a premade, I'll try to coordinate as much as possible.

    And if we lose (likely), hey - we tried! Next time maybe. And if we keep on losing, I'll grab a few guildies and see if we can actually fight back effectively with a more solid, coordinated core.

  12. #12
    Ascendant empyrean's Avatar
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    I love it when "hardcores" perpetuate this myth that they accomplish what they do on a small time budget.

    ********.

    I've been on both sides of the spectrum, and I can attest that sacrifices are made by the hardcores to get where they are. People don't just wake up and become accomplished; it takes work: a combination of time, and dedication.

    And yes, this applies to "just a game lolzorz"; especially in a game where the measure of skill is mostly dependent on time invested.

    Anyway, I don't know why you'd even downplay this and rag on the "scrub" casual - so sad when accomplished players do this. Instead of being apologetic, dishonest or ashamed of your commitment to the game, you should own it. At least that way, people can respect you.

    Reaching R6 isn't a matter or skill - let's really be serious here. It's how much you play.

    The more you play:
    a) the more prestige and favour you get
    b) the better you get at the game - ie you get to know your class, other classes, their spells, counters, etc ("practice makes perfect" anyone?)

    Thus, I can see why feeble minds would confuse the two.
    Last edited by empyrean; 05-03-2011 at 06:24 PM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by empyrean View Post
    Reaching R6 isn't a matter or skill - let's really be serious here. It's how much you play.
    I wonder what would happen if they calculated rank based on a weighted win/loss ratio or similar mechanic.

  14. #14
    Banned Sawdomite's Avatar
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    This is totally true, until you hit 50 and get good gear.

    If you went into pvp geared as hell it'd be fine and dandy, the only reason you're really playing in the first place is to feel like you're awesome and pwn noobs. That's being serious. Anyone who comes in here saying "Oh no I just like the chaos and running around and dying with my friends is still cool" is lying.

    And what is logically the only way to "pwn noobs"? We get better gear, because, all else being equal, that is your only way to win. You play the most powerful soul and wear the best gear.

    You can be skilled, but you can't always count on your enemy being worse than you. So even if you could win with mediocre gear, there is always an inherent drive to just acquire good gear because you're always better off that way.

    Whoever above me said "I gear for pvp," I totally agree. I'm really glad there is gear to be got from doing pvp, win-win for me. I can pwn noobs and gear up at the same time.

    Oh wait, group up with people and discuss strategy? I can get gear sooner and thus pwn more noobs sooner and faster. Sweet!

    Anyone who hates on grouping for pvp is just upset because:
    (1) No one wants to play with them.
    (2) They die a lot regardless of finding a group.
    (3) They don't really see improvement when they gear up anyways.
    (4) They simply refuse to form groups.
    (5) They can't find the time to group.

    For 1-3, it all comes down to them just being a bad player. Changing anything in the game (aside giving all players 1 hp, infinite range, infinite damage and omnipresent line of sight) won't make them die any less.

    For 4, too bad. Why should the game be catered to you? Especially an aspect of it which you apparently are very non-serious and casual about.

    For 5, LFG tool is coming. No worries there.

  15. #15
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by empyrean View Post
    I love it when "hardcores" perpetuate this myth that they accomplish what they do on a small time budget.

    ********.

    I've been on both sides of the spectrum, and I can attest that sacrifices are made by the hardcores to get where they are. People don't just wake up and become accomplished; it takes work: a combination of time, and dedication.

    And yes, this applies to "just a game lolzorz"; especially in a game where the measure of skill is mostly dependent on time invested.

    Anyway, I don't know why you'd even downplay this and rag on the "scrub" casual - so sad when accomplished players do this. Instead of being apologetic, dishonest or ashamed of your commitment to the game, you should own it. At least that way, people can respect you.

    Reaching R6 isn't a matter or skill - let's really be serious here. It's how much you play.

    The more you play:
    a) the more prestige and favour you get
    b) the better you get at the game - ie you get to know your class, other classes, their spells, counters, etc ("practice makes perfect" anyone?)

    Thus, I can see why feeble minds would confuse the two.
    You make alot of baseless conclusions here.
    First I never claimed to be hardcore. In fact I would call myself a mediocre player, probably somewhat above the average. That doesn't stop me from experimenting with my builds or trying to get people together. Because that is the ultimate goal: get better, have fun.

    I don't downplay anything. Game really is a serious business. You need to take it seriously to succeed, and success is the first measure of fun.
    The main point I presented that taking game seriously in no way implies playing day and night and "having no life". In fact it is quiet the opposite.

    Is r6 a grinder title? Yes, I totally agree, and that is what is bad. There is no transition from solo leveling to the actual MMO world. People expect to just mindlessly grind it, and unfortunately succeed at it, even though at the cost of fun. But thats not enough for them. The game misled them to think that it is normal, so now they want their cake, my cake, and eat both of them.

    Getting better versus time spent: Yes on a finite scale. It doesn't take too long to hit the ceiling of the class knowledge and game mechanics... assuming you are actually trying and not just "having fun".
    -- Trollhammer@Molinar

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