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Thread: The win-win-win solution for Premade vs PUGs

  1. #1
    General of Telara Virchow's Avatar
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    Default The win-win-win solution for Premade vs PUGs

    Read this stupid wall of text and thank me later.

    Why change the current situation? It's the difference between wants and needs.
    - Everyone wants to win, everybody needs to lose.
    - Everyone wants a smooth victory, everyone needs a challenge.
    - Everyone wants to be at the destination, everyone needs the journey.

    Each time a player wins a WF, it grants a stacking 1 hour 'buff' to the character that grants the opposing side a 1% bonus to all stats. For each stack on the opposing side there is a 5% bonus to prestige attained for killing/winning.

    After a loss, the buff disperses.

    -Win for the PUGs who may eventually get to a point where they can be competitive, win and gain prestige.
    -Win for the premades who start reaping more prestige and actually begin to face real challenges.
    -Win for Rift, who just solved one of the great design challenges of our time.

    The buff shall be called "Virchow's Gift"

  2. #2
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    It is an interesting idea, and one I don't necessarily oppose in some form.

    Beyond that though they still need to split out solo queue and groups.

    Your idea is a more interesting overall change that could potentially be interesting for warfronts.

    The issue with Premades and PUGs would not be resolved by such a change though.

  3. #3
    Rift Master GriffonHawke's Avatar
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    or...


    Preset vs Preset in seperate warfront situations

    Single queue with single queue.



    Wow that was hard

  4. #4
    Plane Touched Uhtred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GriffonHawke View Post
    or...


    Preset vs Preset in seperate warfront situations

    Single queue with single queue.



    Wow that was hard
    And next, we can make dungeons only accessible via the LFG tool. We wouldn't want people organizing on their own to achieve anything right? Single ques ftw

  5. #5
    General of Telara Virchow's Avatar
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    Not everyone can win most of the time. In the end, premades will still win more than PUGs, but after a few losses, the PUGs will win and the premades will lose. At some point the PUGs will be worth incredible prestige to the premades, but nearly unstoppable boss-mode tough.

    As someone who exclusively PUGs, I assure you there are many who will stick around the queues just to steamroll the premades.

  6. #6
    General of Telara Virchow's Avatar
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    Challenge and reward are two main reasons we all game. This eloquent solution offers both to all involved.

  7. #7
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virchow View Post
    Read this stupid wall of text and thank me later.

    Why change the current situation? It's the difference between wants and needs.
    - Everyone wants to win, everybody needs to lose.
    - Everyone wants a smooth victory, everyone needs a challenge.
    - Everyone wants to be at the destination, everyone needs the journey.

    Each time a player wins a WF, it grants a stacking 1 hour 'buff' to the character that grants the opposing side a 1% bonus to all stats. For each stack on the opposing side there is a 5% bonus to prestige attained for killing/winning.

    After a loss, the buff disperses.

    -Win for the PUGs who may eventually get to a point where they can be competitive, win and gain prestige.
    -Win for the premades who start reaping more prestige and actually begin to face real challenges.
    -Win for Rift, who just solved one of the great design challenges of our time.

    The buff shall be called "Virchow's Gift"
    It's certainly an interesting and creative idea. But I'm not sure I like it.

    What happens if a premade with a high built up buff meets another premade of roughly equal skill without the buff (say a premade that only just started a session)? The premade with the buff will get rolled because with equal skill/gear the % stat bonus will make a difference. Outcome: both premades are pissed off at the missed opportunity for an awesome & balanced match and the premade that had the buff in addition is annoyed that they have to go back to rolling PuGs to build the buff up again.

    I don't think I want challenge to be as a result of superior stats - if I wanted to beat on someone with a million hp I can always PvE. Challenge should come from the skill/organisation of your opponent.

  8. #8
    General of Telara Virchow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atavist View Post
    It's certainly an interesting and creative idea. But I'm not sure I like it.

    What happens if a premade with a high built up buff meets another premade of roughly equal skill without the buff (say a premade that only just started a session)? The premade with the buff will get rolled because with equal skill/gear the % stat bonus will make a difference. Outcome: both premades are pissed off at the missed opportunity for an awesome & balanced match and the premade that had the buff in addition is annoyed that they have to go back to rolling PuGs to build the buff up again.

    I don't think I want challenge to be as a result of superior stats - if I wanted to beat on someone with a million hp I can always PvE. Challenge should come from the skill/organisation of your opponent.
    Not a scenario I could envision happening often, but I imagine that if you were a premade and wanted an even shake at another successful premade, you could right click off the effects individually from the recipient side (although I imagine this option would RARELY be used).

  9. #9
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atavist View Post
    Outcome: both premades are pissed off at the missed opportunity for an awesome & balanced match
    Here is where you miss something critical. Most premades don't want a challenge. Hence the reason they endlessly farm PUG's in a winning match instead of ending it quick and trying to find a challenge.

  10. #10
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virchow View Post
    Read this stupid wall of text and thank me later.

    Why change the current situation? It's the difference between wants and needs.
    - Everyone wants to win, everybody needs to lose.
    - Everyone wants a smooth victory, everyone needs a challenge.
    - Everyone wants to be at the destination, everyone needs the journey.

    Each time a player wins a WF, it grants a stacking 1 hour 'buff' to the character that grants the opposing side a 1% bonus to all stats. For each stack on the opposing side there is a 5% bonus to prestige attained for killing/winning.

    After a loss, the buff disperses.

    -Win for the PUGs who may eventually get to a point where they can be competitive, win and gain prestige.
    -Win for the premades who start reaping more prestige and actually begin to face real challenges.
    -Win for Rift, who just solved one of the great design challenges of our time.

    The buff shall be called "Virchow's Gift"
    This is yet another in the line of unnecessary artificial buffs.
    Who benefits from this? Griefers and exploiters.
    Who gets hurts by this? Regular PUGs that going to come back here and cry another river.
    Premades will be still bored and annoyed.

    I said this before and I'll say this gain: Give people solid rewards for getting better. Scaling favor/prestige based in killer/victim rank is a good start for that.
    People who don't want to get better, will suck balls anyway. People who want to have fun will get reason to do it better. Everyone wins... well, except PvE scrubs that queue for WFs as if it's a quest or something.
    Last edited by liho1eye; 05-03-2011 at 03:28 PM.
    -- Trollhammer@Molinar

  11. #11
    General of Telara Virchow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by liho1eye View Post
    Who benefits from this? Griefers and exploiters.
    As someone who strictly PUGs, I assure you one win every 3 losses to a premade, including a trouncing of people that crushed me previously would be someone that benefits the average PUG.

    As a premade looking for a challenge, here is a challenge that scales up as you continue to win.

    As a premade looking to farm prestige, here is an opportunity to earn more prestige at a faster rate, cutting down on your 'farming' or 'grinding' time. Not get handed it, but earn it.

    I don't see anyone (legit) that DOESN'T benefit from this if balanced.

    Quote Originally Posted by liho1eye View Post
    Who gets hurts by this? Regular PUGs that going to come back here and cry another river.
    Premades will be still bored and annoyed.
    I disagree on who gets 'hurt' by this. If the system transforms into a pure PUG only system, with two main groups participating of equal skill, I can see where this buff might determine the outcome, and cause the result to constantly flip flop, but I have RARELY seen two teams that equal, and in the end, they both win anyway.

    I also don't believe premades will be bored if they've been successful. Since the buff stacks, you could conceivably be battling a PUG of Elites for all intents and purposes, and if successful repeatedly against them, a PUG of bosses. Not boring. Even if it's the 12 year old ADD on the sugar rush or the 20 year old near suicidal emo in the basement, a baby Godzilla is still Godzilla. The prestige bonus for fighting them will make it worth the premade's time to try to fight them.

  12. #12
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    You know what, Virchow? I would totally dig that.

  13. #13
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virchow View Post
    As someone who strictly PUGs, I assure you one win every 3 losses to a premade, including a trouncing of people that crushed me previously would be someone that benefits the average PUG.

    As a premade looking for a challenge, here is a challenge that scales up as you continue to win.

    As a premade looking to farm prestige, here is an opportunity to earn more prestige at a faster rate, cutting down on your 'farming' or 'grinding' time. Not get handed it, but earn it.

    I don't see anyone (legit) that DOESN'T benefit from this if balanced.
    PvP is not a dungeon. "Challenge" is not how much HP and damage modifier mobs have.
    In fact I know this on game called GuildWars managed PvE that was actually challenging without going into absurdities of 1mil HP and 1-shot kills on untanked targets.
    You trying to flip it the other way around.

    I am totally fine with extra incentives for people fighting uphill battle (in fact I am surprised to why it isn't a standard). But anything that substitutes player skill is bad... bad, BAD, BAD.




    I disagree on who gets 'hurt' by this. If the system transforms into a pure PUG only system, with two main groups participating of equal skill, I can see where this buff might determine the outcome, and cause the result to constantly flip flop, but I have RARELY seen two teams that equal, and in the end, they both win anyway.

    I also don't believe premades will be bored if they've been successful. Since the buff stacks, you could conceivably be battling a PUG of Elites for all intents and purposes, and if successful repeatedly against them, a PUG of bosses. Not boring. Even if it's the 12 year old ADD on the sugar rush or the 20 year old near suicidal emo in the basement, a baby Godzilla is still Godzilla. The prestige bonus for fighting them will make it worth the premade's time to try to fight them.
    You argue 1 very particular group versus another very particular group. WFs don't work that way. Well, sometimes they do, but thats because not enough people playing them. And even if they did... how is it different from flipping a coin and not bothering people with playing WF at all?

    No, once again: artificial balances are bad.
    They rewards losers for no reason other than AFKing entire round.
    They take away sense of achievement (for those mature enough to realize whats going).
    They annoy the crap out of people who have to deal with game stacking against them.

    It's like saying Olympic sprinters who failed to get a medal in previous games should get shorter tracks until they win. Who would wanna compete in that?
    -- Trollhammer@Molinar

  14. #14
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    "Who would wanna compete in that?"

    Weight lifters.

    There are many sports like weight lifting where you're tested repeatedly as things get harder and harder until inevitable failure. As long as you have some way to track the increase in difficulty then you have a standard by which you can measure your success.

  15. #15
    General of Telara Virchow's Avatar
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    I"m bumping this for the morning crowd

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