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Thread: To everyone pouring Haterade on "premade" pvp

  1. #1
    Banned Sawdomite's Avatar
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    Default To everyone pouring Haterade on "premade" pvp

    First of all, I'd like to say there has been way too much bashing and negativity going on in this forum. Especially when the thread is about premades, everyone is either incredibly pessimistic, inconsiderate or just trolling. On top of opinion being so divisive on pvp issues, especially premades.

    I see a ton saying there's no way to ever win pvp unless you run a premade. All the "solutions" I've seen to this "problem" are fairly short-sighted, to say the least. The popular one of not allowing groups to queue is just awful. Yeah, let's make it practically impossible for friends to pvp together. Another common one is forming separate queues for premades and individuals. One obvious result, for several servers with lower population at least, would be increased queue times. More issues are associated with that as well (what specifically constitutes a premade?), but I won't get into that further. We've all heard it before.

    What I hardly ever see, or taken seriously at least, is a proven solution to turning around your regular losing streaks in pvp: Form your own group. What? You actually have to be social to some degree? In an MMO? Pfff!

    Let's be logical about this, though. Assuming "all else equal," in any game that is a premade against a group of 10 random players, why should the outcome, logically, ever be in favor of the 10 random players? Two things stand out regardless of any other variable. (1) The premade's players have some innate desire to organize and otherwise improve their odds of winning. (2) The premade is much more disposed to communication. If not in vent, at least through "death chat" and previously discussed strategy.

    Now add in the fact that your 10 random players aren't coordinated by calling or soul to any degree and have likely no experience playing with each other. Not only do they not necessarily care to organize to win more, not only do they have no real established understanding or strategy between themselves, but they are just as likely to have ineffective calling/soul combinations as they would have good ones. Knowing the general player base, on average they probably have a lot less healers.

    With that considered, a fair and relevant question comes to mind: If you queue solo, why should you expect to win as much as you lose? Logically speaking, you really made a bad choice going solo. The odds are certainly far and away stacked against you. Ah! There's the important word: Choice.

    This isn't just some logical argument against "anti-premade" thinking and the like, but a wake-up call to the far too large group of pessimists and out-right premade haters. To you who think you're resigned to lose forever, who think "premades" are ruining the game.

    Throwing around "premade" like most of you do has this awful connotation, like there's something wrong with people wanting to group up and win. I'm going to tell you guys about my experiences earlier tonight. Hopefully you'll all take it positively and realize this game could be a lot more fun if you just thought it possible. Anyways.

    Usually I queue with my friend (we go cleric/warr or cleric/mage) for pvp, and normally we win about 7 of 10 matches, something around there. When there happens to be a good premade catching us on the flipside of our queues, obviously that goes down. I'd say we can still pull off 3-10 or 4-10, as opposed to the usual 0-10 for when I just queue solo.

    Well, I've been getting pretty busy with research lately, among other things, so my friend is now in a higher pvp bracket than I am. Bummer! So, I ran a few solo queues at first earlier today. We happened to win one going against another random team, but the next two games I had was against premades. The one was about 300-500, the other one of those abysmal 4-500ish curb stomps.

    I decided that was bogus, and figured I'd try spamming /4. Surely enough, after a minute or so of speaking in /4 about wanting to organize and get some wins going in WFs, people were responding. Over the course of the next hour and a half, I managed: to get two levels, win about 12 of 15 games, make two new friends, and bolster my guild's membership by the same. I even had a second group trying to synchronize their queue with ours to get even better games going.

    We never talked in vent or anything like that, just discussed basic strategy between games and stuff like that. Honestly, we spent more time chatting about how awesome things were going for us or about dealing with the one tough premade we ran into (definitely a group on vent, to whom we lost those three games--did manage to beat them twice anyway though).

    I know there's going to be some of you who don't bother reading this, or will just bash it anyways because of the magic word, or whatever the angle is. I just wanted to put this out there. You can easily turn your WF losses around. You can easily organize. Part of your problem is simply denying that the people forming groups are more organized and simply play better as a result. You just tell yourself that premades are for min-maxers or scrubs or whatever your preferred buzzword is, and they just cheat the rules somehow.

    Honestly, until you just admit that it simply makes good sense to group up for pvp (hey, you do it for pve constantly!), and until you actually bother trying to organize with other players and go outside of your comfort zone of playing solo 1-50, you're not going to have fun or be winning many WFs. And even more honestly, you can only blame yourself.

    That is all.

  2. #2
    Shield of Telara Shadowblazer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sawdomite View Post
    \
    That is all.
    yes it is
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    Ascendant Apoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sawdomite View Post

    Let's be logical about this, though. Assuming "all else equal," in any game that is a premade against a group of 10 random players, why should the outcome, logically, ever be in favor of the 10 random players?
    because those 10 random players are paying for the development of the game, you lose those 10 players plus how many other dozens of players that lose constantly to premades. guess what? they will probably not organize they will simply quit or not even bother with warfronts anymore.

    slowing the queue time for your premade and other players who then quit or don't bother queue and queues get longer and longer.

    you see you're not actually in a war this is a game that is played by all types for fun. you're fun may be eat up all the easy mode favor from Premade vs Pugs. but others fun may be just queueing up for a warfront solo while questing.

    and there are alot more of them than there are of you premades who are soo scared of losing your easy favor/prestige.

    lets face it thats why somebody comes up with a dozen paragraph post trying to justify why premades should exist. in reality this post says "please trion ... don't match me up against other premades I might actually suck and my epeen can't handle it."
    Last edited by Gill; 05-03-2011 at 12:18 AM. Reason: rude

    WTB the above item .... mine broke

  4. #4
    aux
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    tl;dr

    Premade PvP good.
    Pug PvP good.
    Premade vs Pug PvP bad.
    I'm so BORED

  5. #5
    Rift Disciple Aalysha's Avatar
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    They should allow premade to play against PUGs as long as the PUG has some premade on their side as well.

    Group 1) 5 guildies + 5 PUGs
    Group 2) 2 RL friends + 2 RL frineds + 6 PUGs


    As long as both sides have their "fair" share of players that signed up together I don't see a problem.

    If it ever happens to be

    Group 1) 5man premade + 5man premade
    Group 2) 10 PUGs

    then the queue system fails.
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  6. #6
    Banned Sawdomite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aalysha View Post
    They should allow premade to play against PUGs as long as the PUG has some premade on their side as well.

    Group 1) 5 guildies + 5 PUGs
    Group 2) 2 RL friends + 2 RL frineds + 6 PUGs


    As long as both sides have their "fair" share of players that signed up together I don't see a problem.

    If it ever happens to be

    Group 1) 5man premade + 5man premade
    Group 2) 10 PUGs

    then the queue system fails.
    I understand where you're coming from, but the problem for the "solo crowd" is in fact the attitude of the "solo crowd." They refuse to organize or communicate, expect to win, then get upset when they lose to people who organize and communicate.

    It's not really to the overall health of the game to make it harder for friends and guildmates to play together. As I pointed out, there's no reason to logically expect to win, no logical basis to your winning, if you queue solo.

    I also explained, if you read far enough, how I managed to "premade" with total strangers yet went about dead-even with the horror-story super-nerd min-maxer guild premades. Without vent. Without a full group all the time. Without anyone I had played with before. Etc.

    I'll be honest, your suggestion, if made more comprehensive and complex, would be worth some consideration. However, I think first there needs to be a serious evaluation on the part of individual players who really think premades are wrong or evil or whatever.

    At least on the forums, there seems to be this group of incredibly stubborn and pessimistic people who buy MMOs to play alone and think they should be catered to at everyone else's expense. There's seriously something wrong with that. The game itself can hardly be blamed for this "premade" issue when it's only an issue to the people who refuse to play a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE game with other players.

  7. #7
    Banned Sawdomite's Avatar
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    Just to point something out for those of you with, shall we say, reading issues:

    For all intents and purposes, I was beating premades as part of a pug. You should seriously read the full post if you grouping for pvp is bad or wrong.

  8. #8
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    The problem is pretty obvious.

    There's no "stepping stone" that would be attractive to those new to 50 or new to PvP. The fact that Warfronts are the only available content and Favor is the only available currency for said content is an obvious starting point.

    If, instead of just bunching everyone together, they gave options that were only truly attractive to those new to the PvP scene (and people who, regardless of rank, just want casual pvp play), and then additional options for the veterans (and the newbies who want a beating), it would serve well to both sides.

    Maybe a specific group of maps that were just like a Last Man Standing sort of thing. People without rank gear would be turned off by this because of the obvious presence of better, more veteran/geared players. Make it a winner-takes-all sort of thing, but give people Favor for their participation.

    The Warfronts are a great starting place for newer 50's. After grinding through the ranks, I think P6 players deserve some real competition and rewards. Letting them loose on newer players shouldn't be stopped, because that's just how it goes. However, giving them an option of more competitive and rewarding/exclusive games might get a lot of them out of the Warfronts.

    This sort of thing would not work to stop anyone, especially groups of friends, from going in and farming some newbie teams for the fun of it. That doesn't need to be stopped because it isn't a genuine problem. If you show up to a race with a Pinto and someone else shows up with a Ferrari, you're going to lose. Time investment and the return on said investment should remain as is.

    Just need more options.

  9. #9
    Rift Disciple Aalysha's Avatar
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    How would a hidden ladder system work.

    Win more, go up the ladder and verse people who win more.

    Lose more and go down the ladder and verse people who lose more.

    Joining as a premade would get the average "ladder rating" of the players + a small amount to compensate for the added coordination they would have.


    There would still be problems with this, but as long as they keep the ladder system a secret I doubt you'll get many complaints.
    Last edited by Aalysha; 05-02-2011 at 11:14 PM.
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  10. #10
    Rift Disciple Javert's Avatar
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    Let me bump it for you once.

    Ok, now that I've done something nice for you, I'll address the topic.

    @OP, your entire effort is to try and ensure that the queues are never split, because you are either: truly afraid that separating them would spell certain doom for group PvP in warfronts, or because you want to ensure the longevity of your easy mode grind. Those are the only two reasons I see to be against separating the queues.

    Now, let me take a moment to look at this from the other side of the chasm, and present my wall-o-text.

    I enjoy warfronts.

    I solo queue most of the time. When my guild mates happen to be on and doing warfronts, I join their groups, as they know me and understand what grouping with me may mean.

    I limit my grouping to my guild, because my RL is hectic, and my play time can be cut short by issues beyond my control (I'm a father that may need to tend to a child unexpectedly, or more likely...I'm on call 24/7...something somewhere on hundreds of sites/servers goes wrong, my play time, sleep time, etc. is over)

    Assuming I've just followed your proposed method and spent 30 minutes building a group, that's real fair to the group for me to just say..."C'ya!" Sure, I could tell them about my unique situation ahead of time, but being from an older generation, I would still feel like I have let them down when that sudden need arises. I still feel this with my guild mates, and I've known some of them for a long while.

    So now, I've abandon a group that I started, and made a commitment to, fell like an absolute ***, and know I've left them with the not so fun job of filling the empty spot.

    Did we get to play any matches...maybe. Did we spend enough time together to actually learn each others play styles, and start developing a comfortable team atmosphere...most likely not. Will I be back on at the same time tomorrow or the next day to try and get with them again...ain't gonna happen.

    I know I can expect, on average, at least one interrupt to my play time...every day. Knowing this, means that I am not going to go actively looking for groups to join or build, as I will frequently have to leave them hanging.

    Your solution caters to people without lives and responsibilities, and leaves the rest of us out in the cold.

    So, forgive me when I side with those who are detractors to your ideals. Premades and PuGs should have separate queues. There should not be any less of a reward for those in the PuG queues (to reference another post I believe was made by the OP). Life in warfronts should then fall out as it may.

    Yes this means that we have to solve the issue of defining exactly what a premade is...I personally draw the line with the button labels. SOLO or GROUP...sounds like the definition has already been made.

    Now to borrow the OP's closing line...

    That is all.
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    Ascendant Visions's Avatar
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    Why do we need another one of these threads? Seriously.

    I think people don't realize why many of us premade, it's not to pick on PUGs, though I freely admit some losers out there do it. We do it because we want to group with our friends, wife, kids, guildmates, etc. I want premade only queues because I want a challenge, and quite frankly, free wins have become boring. I don't know why any player part of a premade wouldn't want premade only queues.


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  12. #12
    Champion of Telara
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    I don't really mind premades, but I get pretty tired of playing against the same premade of pyro's and clerics in 80% of my warfronts.

    Every once in awhile isn't too bad, but every match against the same group kind of sucks.

  13. #13
    Soulwalker
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    Default Premades

    When you're in a guild it is inevitable that you're going to queue with a bunch of other people who also want to PvP. Eventually it turns out we're running 1 or 2 groups and syncing queues and stuff. When we get premades it's a fun match but we completely dismantle pugs. This is with us having a main warrior and 2 sabs assist macro'ing him and calling detonates in vent, if you're not a premade you don't really stand a chance. The only solution I can see to this is to match queues by team size but this would probably make queues longer :/

  14. #14
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    Sure, it's an excuse, but it's a useful excuse. Don't take it too seriously. There have to be excuses - if it wasn't premades, it would be gear. If it wasn't gear it would be classes or specs.

    The main point is that nobody ever realizes that they are a bad player. It's almost a contridiction to realize it, unless you just don't care - because if you knew you were playing badly (and cared), you'd change.

    We don't want the bad players to quit PvPing. It would kill queue times, and the previously-middle-of-the-pack players would be the new bad players, and end up quitting too. Bad players need to keep playing for PvP to stay in existence. And for that, we need excuses. Might as well be this one.

  15. #15
    Rift Disciple
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    Why do people on this forum assume Rift's biggest customer base is pvp players? Yes, it was somewhat marketed that way on launch, but it's entirely possible that the larger portion of customers are casual pve-ers. If that's the case, Trion probably doesn't care about even the legitimate pvp complaints on this forum. They may lose customers if they don't change it, but if their main target audience is pve, they may see it as acceptable losses.

    The assumption that this game is pvp centered is just that, an assumption.

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