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Thread: The Premade v. PUG Debate is Nonsense and Takes Away From Legitimate PvP Problems

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    Plane Touched TheGrump's Avatar
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    Default The Premade v. PUG Debate is Nonsense and Takes Away From Legitimate PvP Problems

    There are some serious problems with Warfront PvP and PvP in general, issues that we are all aware of such as:

    -nonsensical queue times;
    -awkward at best cross-realm Warfronts;
    -individual Soul balances;
    -CC issues;
    -unintelligible favour rewards in Warfronts.

    These issues have been debated and brought to Trion's attention in different ways time and again since RIFT launched two months ago. This is good, it's healthy for the community to point out these things. However, what is not healthy for the community is the continual *****ing session about 'premades' and 'pugs' in PvP. There is no legitimate problem there and I'd like to point out three particular reasons why.

    'Premade' and 'PUG' are not dirty words
    The terms 'Premade' and 'PUG' are slung around with all the precision of 'hardcore' and 'casual,' however unlike the latter two terms both 'Premade' and 'PUG' have readily agreed upon definitions. A 'Premade' is a group that is co-ordinated before the Warfront begins and may have some VoIP communications enabled to help people stay on task. A 'PUG' is a group that is not fully co-ordinated before the Warfront begins and isn't likely to be using VoIP to help the group stay on task. Simply put, the only differences between these two groups are their general ability to co-ordinate. Neither PUGs nor Premade groups are inherently bad, quite unlike what people here and in other places say, it all comes down to the people playing in the groups.

    Most people aren't in Warfronts to PvP, they're there to PK
    Let's face facts or at least try to: most people involved in PVP aren't so much interested in objective-driven PvP as they are interested in simply PK, killing other players. This is a playing mentality and one that has no place in objective-driven PvP as, whether these players are in a 'Premade' or a 'PUG' they are going to be a liability to the group. There is no overlooking this fact and even the most cursory look at Warfront behaviour will demonstrate the reality of this situation. It's an unfortunate reality, too, but it is one that has nothing to do with the sort of group a player is in and everything to do with the individual players themselves.

    Most people in a PUG don't try to communicate with their team
    This is another fact we must face. It's rare that I see anyone attempting to communicate anything other than harassment in Warfronts and when people do use the /raid channel to communicate they are either ignored or shouted down by people that are inappropriately sensitive, the 'why should I listen to you' crowd. This is the root of the problem with 'PUGs' universally, not just in PvP, but when coupled with the PK-happy behaviour of the gross majority of PvPers we have the current problem. With this being the case it is simply not appropriate to blame people that choose to participate in a 'Premade.'

    Now, with all of that out of the way I'd like to just say a few more things. I haven't participated in a 'Premade' in any game but Guild Wars and, honestly, when in a 'Premade' the chances of roflstomping the opposing team is very high if they are a 'PUG.' This is only because of the behaviour I mentioned above. In other games, be it a FPS or another MMORPG, once I know the layout of a Warfront I begin to make plans for it and develop tactics. When I enter the zone I (1) announce what role I am going to fill after looking at the composition and (2) if no one has given a plan I will give a plan to the group and hope that people take it.

    For example, today I ran with a guild member in a queue for 40+ Whitefall Steppes. I went in, announced that I was going Dominator and told the group that we'll go down the right side, I'll take the crystal and to just protect me. No one affirmed that they would stick with that plan but everyone did and we won 2-0. We had a great defence and the opposing carrier was harried until they dropped the crystal and it was returned to us. When there were decided lulls in the battle I congratulated our team on their great defence and when we got our first point I told them that we'll stick with the same plan. With less than 1 minute left we got our last point and won the match by a score of 2-0.

    The PUG I was in won because (1) someone made a plan, (2) no one harassed anyone else, they were encouraged, (3) people stuck with the plan and (4) everyone played their roles well. It's not a simple equation because it comes down to good communication coupled with good play. People need to stop being so sensitive to criticism, learn to play better, communicate with their team and strive to develop comradery or community within their ranks. Community goes cross-server, too.

    Let's stop this nonsensical debate and get back to arguing about the real issues mentioned at the beginning of this post, eh?


  2. #2
    Telaran
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    Truth man. They need to add a non-objective based PvP for people to play in so those that just want to kill other players can do so, and the people who like objective based things can have their cup of tea.

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    Telaran
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    pug vs premade is obviously a problem and the only way it will be solved is by making a separate queue for premades and consolidating battle groups.

    i play with my friends in a premade every day and pvp was fun for like the first week and now its just boring. every match turns into people sitting in spawn or up on the hill in bg.

    there is absolutely no reason a separate queue cant be created for premades. trion just needs to spend a couple days working on pvp content instead of all this pve ********.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fuller View Post
    pug vs premade is obviously a problem and the only way it will be solved is by making a separate queue for premades and consolidating battle groups.

    i play with my friends in a premade every day and pvp was fun for like the first week and now its just boring. every match turns into people sitting in spawn or up on the hill in bg.

    there is absolutely no reason a separate queue cant be created for premades. trion just needs to spend a couple days working on pvp content instead of all this pve ********.
    Problem is, that will kill premades altogether. WoW did it, and whole PvP guilds split up - it's impossible to hold together a premade for an hour and a half until a WF pops.

    I am sympathetic to a degree (I can't buy a premade on Greybriar to save my life), but there's really no help for it other than to take premade out of the game altogether. So much for playing with friends.

    And with Cross Shard groupings, there is no way to coordinate or to learn any of your teammates' abilities as pugs. So there's no way to know if Mr. Mouth is good or just noisy.

    Sticky problem.

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    Prophet of Telara kuronese's Avatar
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    TBH, the issue could be solved by people not being so damn anti-social. In other words, get good, make friends who are good, and make your own pre-mades... problem solved.

    And I don't say what I say to be mean. I say what I say because I remember what it was like when I first started MMOs, and man was I bad. One day, someone who was good said to me, "Stop being bad, baddie." Instead of getting asshurt, I listened. Now these games are enjoyable to me, because I took the time to learn to do what needed doing.

    On MMO break until someone decides to put out a game developed for PvP.
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    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuronese View Post
    TBH, the issue could be solved by people not being so damn anti-social. In other words, get good, make friends who are good, and make your own pre-mades... problem solved.

    And I don't say what I say to be mean. I say what I say because I remember what it was like when I first started MMOs, and man was I bad. One day, someone who was good said to me, "Stop being bad, baddie." Instead of getting asshurt, I listened. Now these games are enjoyable to me, because I took the time to learn to do what needed doing.

    This is kinda like saying we should just build nukes cus everyone else is.

  7. #7
    Prophet of Telara kuronese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by damican View Post
    This is kinda like saying we should just build nukes cus everyone else is.
    This is YOU saying that you aren't willing to do what it takes to compete, then justifying it with misplaced hyperbole.

    Quit being bad.

    On MMO break until someone decides to put out a game developed for PvP.
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    Plane Touched TheGrump's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuronese View Post
    This is YOU saying that you aren't willing to do what it takes to compete, then justifying it with misplaced hyperbole.

    Quit being bad.
    This is pretty much the case with most people complaining about this issue and brings me to the point my girlfriend regularly hammers home: PvP is bad because people are bad. She constantly reminds me that, even though she enjoys PvP, too many people just choose to be bad at it and/or grief other people while remaining wholly unfocused on the objectives. DMs have their place in PvP, to be sure, but most PvP isn't a DM and that sort of style isn't utilised in anything but an arena setting. Warfronts are not arenas.

    It all comes down to the players. Should Trion create a competitive bracket specifically for people that want to go Premade v. Premade? Possibly, but there is the serious risk of Warfront PvP dissolving into something incredibly uninviting for new PvPers on the one hand and more of a mess than we currently have on the other. Should Trion create tournament brackets? Sure, that would be an interesting idea. But, again, ad nauseum, it all comes down to players and if players choose to (1) listen and watch, (2) learn and (3) give quality instruction and criticism to their juniors.


  9. #9
    Prophet of Telara kuronese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrump View Post
    This is pretty much the case with most people complaining about this issue and brings me to the point my girlfriend regularly hammers home: PvP is bad because people are bad. She constantly reminds me that, even though she enjoys PvP, too many people just choose to be bad at it and/or grief other people while remaining wholly unfocused on the objectives. DMs have their place in PvP, to be sure, but most PvP isn't a DM and that sort of style isn't utilised in anything but an arena setting. Warfronts are not arenas.

    It all comes down to the players. Should Trion create a competitive bracket specifically for people that want to go Premade v. Premade? Possibly, but there is the serious risk of Warfront PvP dissolving into something incredibly uninviting for new PvPers on the one hand and more of a mess than we currently have on the other. Should Trion create tournament brackets? Sure, that would be an interesting idea. But, again, ad nauseum, it all comes down to players and if players choose to (1) listen and watch, (2) learn and (3) give quality instruction and criticism to their juniors.
    I think I love you.

    On MMO break until someone decides to put out a game developed for PvP.
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    Plane Walker Stabsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrump View Post
    Most people aren't in Warfronts to PvP, they're there to PK
    This more than anything is why premades own pugs. Some "premades" are actually just people gathered with trade channel spam with no voice comms but they still own pugs because of this. This is also a big factor in why clerics often don't heal - it feels like a waste of time to heal some rogue who's chasing down some mage while letting the stone-carrier run past and score.

    The only solution is one that they will never implement - rewards for winning not killing. The incentive structure is a strong influence on how people play in pugs.

    We probably have to put up with it, while hoping that one day a real RvR game will come along. With a generation of MMO players rewarded for showing up, rewarded for individual kill farming it will be quite a brave publishing decision to make a game that doesn't cater to them.
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    Plane Touched TheGrump's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stabsy View Post
    The only solution is one that they will never implement - rewards for winning not killing. The incentive structure is a strong influence on how people play in pugs..
    I've said as much in a few other threads and I think that rewards for killing need to be absolutely minimal unless it has a direct and not incidental effect on the match. For example, killing anyone healing the fang carrier in Black Garden or killing the fang carrier themselves should reward nice points. Killing people who are not directly related to the task at hand, but are trying to prevent you from killing those players, should give minimal at best rewards. After all, foot soldiers are foot soldiers and officers are officiers: killing foot soldiers is important but unless you get the officers you're not going to be winning any wars.


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    Plane Walker Villainelle's Avatar
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    So, if having separate queues for premades and PUGs will "kill" premades because they're forced to wait too long, then how about just getting rid of Group Join and forcing *everyone* to solo queue? Then the queues will always be fast and everyone will be on an equal playing field.

    Oh, but you wouldn't like that, because there goes your ezmode PUG farming.

    Stop trying to rationalize this with half-baked drivel about skill, queue times, teamwork, and all the other crap you're using to obfuscate the issue. The fact is that premades exist to farm rank and favor off PUGs. Period. End of discussion.

    Separate the queues.
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    The PUG vs Premade is just as legitimate a PVP issue as any of those you listed. They are all problems for a lot of people. Some more than others.

    To dismiss it because you don't care about it, or because it might actually infringe on your gameplay doesn't make it right. it would not be any more right for me to out of hand dismiss any of those other issues you listed.

  14. #14
    Plane Touched TheGrump's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aeio View Post
    The PUG vs Premade is just as legitimate a PVP issue as any of those you listed. They are all problems for a lot of people. Some more than others.

    To dismiss it because you don't care about it, or because it might actually infringe on your gameplay doesn't make it right. it would not be any more right for me to out of hand dismiss any of those other issues you listed.
    You are possess a serious misunderstanding of a legitimate issue. The issues mentioned above are legitimate because they are things that the developers can actually fix and need to fix, they exist independent of the players. The faux-issue of 'Premades v. Pugs' is entirely dependent upon the players and has nothing to do with the developers.

    The issue is not being dismissed for any other reason than that and it may be the case that you refuse to see it. I've seen both sides of the fence, albeit in different games, and the issue remains the same: it all comes down to players and their near ubiquitous refusal to communicate.


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    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Villainelle View Post
    So, if having separate queues for premades and PUGs will "kill" premades because they're forced to wait too long, then how about just getting rid of Group Join and forcing *everyone* to solo queue? Then the queues will always be fast and everyone will be on an equal playing field.

    Oh, but you wouldn't like that, because there goes your ezmode PUG farming.

    Stop trying to rationalize this with half-baked drivel about skill, queue times, teamwork, and all the other crap you're using to obfuscate the issue. The fact is that premades exist to farm rank and favor off PUGs. Period. End of discussion.

    Separate the queues.
    i did not buy this game to play by myself. i could have bought dragon age for that. i bought this game to play with other people. you guys that refuse to put in the effort to make a few friends on a massively multiplayer game blow my mind. we are getting a lfg tool to help with t1/t2s/quests/raids. why cant we just add wfs to that tools functionality. premades exist because some people understand that coordination trumps individuals. coordination increases win/loss ration. if you want to call that favor/prestige farming then so be it. but nothing is keeping you from doing the same

    we dont send people to war untrained. we separate our forces into air force, ground force, water force etc. they are each trained separately and have specific units. they each have tasks that they are set to accomplish in any given skirmish. this is to minimize losses and maximize gain. do you think it is unfair of the usa to do this? would you rather send our troops in completely willy nilly with absolutely no organization?

    i know that example was over the top, but in reality, we are fighting a war in these war fronts. coordination and preplanning are the key to victory. if you dont prepare, then get stomped, thats all there is to it.

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