+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 33

Thread: On the stupidity of balancing

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    5

    Post On the stupidity of balancing

    Within the following lines I will address the problems which are spawned by the claim that the game we are all enjoying, is unfair, unbalanced and thus gives reason to the outcry that some classes or souls are far to strong - let’s not use the term “overpowered” which has a completely different meaning - or that the class currently played by those who give birth to this outcry, is just weak and puny.
    This mere collection of thoughts on the subject, will not help you if you just lost a game in the battlegrounds, in fact it might enrage you even more - if you are one of those people who think he lost because he is unable to kill anyone because everyone else is stronger then him - since the only solution to the problem at hand lies within the hands of the players, it will not be found in the changelog of some patch.
    But now to business, more matter with less art.
    Let’s look at a game of chess.
    A battle lead by two generals - the players of the match - and fought by pawns, knights, rooks, bishops and queens - the king is not really part of the actual battle, he is the objective.
    To the players eye the game of chess is fair.
    Both players have the same pieces, both of them have the same chance of winning.
    To the pawn on the other hand, the battle he is part of - and if we accept that this game is a representation of a battle, then it cannot be a game to the pieces fighting said battle - is extremely unfair.
    He has no real chance at winning against a queen, maybe some other pawn behind him might defeat the queen, but only if the first one sacrifices himself - or rather, the first one is sacrificed by the player.
    And there we have the first part of the problem.
    If you expect the game to be fair because it is a game with certain rules which must not allow one player to be at an unfair advantage, you are heading down the wrong path.
    We do not play the game, we are but pieces on the board of an abstract game played be the imaginary generals which lead either of the two factions.
    This abstract game - just like chess - is completely fair, simply because both factions have the same set of pieces - the classes and souls - to chose from.
    It would of course be no less fair if we patched the crap out of the game - the actual game, RIFT, not the abstract one mentioned above - so why shouldn't we “balance” the game?
    Because it is impossible.
    At the moment we have pawns, rooks, bishops, knights and queens on the board and right now, the pawns are most likely to proclaim that this game is unfair, because to them it is.
    So let’s imagine we listened to them.
    If we listened to the pawns, all queens would be weakened to become just as strong as a rook or a bishop, but now things are even more dire.
    Before this patch, the rooks and bishops were allied to the pawn in his struggle against the all-mighty queen, but now? Now the rooks and bishops are just as strong as the former queens and the pawns are still weak. And at an even weaker position because they lost their support.
    Now the will cry even louder to make up for that support, now he is the only one weaker than the rest.
    So we listen again.
    The pawn is patched, his powers increase and now he also is just as strong as a rook or bishop.
    So there we are, all we have now are rooks and bishops.
    Now the game is fair, isn’t it?
    Well, in theory, yes but... we’ll leave the but for later, first an other problem.
    Even if this theoretical fairness could be achieved, it would ruin the game.
    It makes for horribly boring fights.
    A rook beats a bishop just to be beaten by another rooks who is then taken of the board by a bishop and so on.
    Everyone just keeps getting killed, no one has fun.
    Does this mean, the situation now, where only the pawns don’t have fun is better?
    Yes, it is. For a couple of reasons.
    Firstly, there are not many pawns left, most of them have already crossed the board and have become rooks or bishops - how you ask? Just wait, it’ll be answered in the end.
    Secondly even those who are still pawns, are not forced to play pawns. You may choose your piece freely. To a certain extend and with certain limitations.
    Before you start screaming “But I don’t want to play another class, I want my class to be a queen!” let me tell you about those limitations.
    As you may have noticed, I have yet to mention a single class. You are left in the dark about which classes I consider to be queens and which are pawns.
    The answer is simple. None.
    To the best of my knowledge all classes are withing the rook-bishop spectrum. Of course some are more likely to become queens than others but the same holds true for becoming pawns.
    This goes some way towards explaining, why balancing is impossible, the difference between a queen and a pawn of the same class is mainly found in the equipment of the character, the experience of the player and the way he plays his character. I don’t mean to say “learn to play, moron” but rather, that there are differences in style of playing - none of which is right or wrong - which will influence the outcome of a fight.
    Since by this reasoning pawns can be found in all classes, you can’t get a completely balanced game whilst still leaving the individual classes.
    Back to keeping your current class.
    The solution is not found in making every class a queen - this would result in a game just as boring as the one with only rooks and bishops, be it a far shorter one.
    But again, you will have to wait for another couple of lines for the solution. Sorry.
    There may be some of you willing to change classes but saying “I am no good at playing that class (which will definitely become a queen, because it is far to strong), that’s unfair!”.
    Please, don’t do that. It makes you look pathetic. I for one am no good at music. I can neither sing nor play any instrument. This makes it much harder to become a famous pop star and by your logic, my inability to become filthy rich by singing is something I am allowed to moan about. It is not.
    Enough stray from the yellow brick road, let’s get back on the way towards the magical solution.
    To those still waiting for that “but” concerning the theoretically fair game, here it is.
    Such a game can only be existent in theory because every rook or bishop can become a pawn or a queen, and thus the existence of pawns can never be eliminated and thereby you will always have someone complaining.
    So now there is only one thing left. The solutions.
    There are three possibilities.
    Firstly, you could play another class or combination of souls to make it easier to become a queen. Luckily most players are not willing to do so or otherwise there would be far more queens about and far less complaining.
    Secondly, work hard on your current character to make him a queen. This solution will satisfy just as few as the first one, either they are unable or unwilling to spent the time and energy to get better then the other players. It’s not really fair if someone lacks the time, but then again, you won’t beat Muhammad Ali by buying some boxing gloves, there has to be some training involved.
    You could of course make it easier to gain the equipment to strengthen your character, but since then anyone would have the best equipment, there would not really be any change.
    The third and final solution I have to offer will involve the piece least mentioned until now. Don’t try to become a queen, become a knight.
    Leave the grid of horizontals, verticals and diagonals and start to jump. Attack in a way that others don’t think of, for example by choosing a unusual combination of souls.
    Having said all that all I can add is: A game of chess is not won by the pieces, it is won by a player and his tactic. So if all this won’t help you, get yourself someone to lead you to victory.

    And to the wonderful folks at Trion who provide us with this game: Please, stop messing with the classes. You will never please everyone and those of us who have nothing to complain about will not be found in the Forums but rather in the game they enjoy. Instead of wasting your time on this Sisyphean task of balancing, just work on the other things within the game that really need improving.

  2. #2
    Champion x Ze x's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    569

    Default

    I've been asking for more balance in chess for near 10 years now, but to no avail. I play a pawn, and i f*cking suck.

    Nice wall of text btw, maybe more cliffs and less chess analogies.
    "It always sound scarier when a hollerer talk soft."

  3. #3
    Sword of Telara Sarasyn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    807

    Default

    ok, but to be honest with the op, I lost interest in this entire wall of text as soon as I saw it was a wall of text.
    Just, comfortably numb....

  4. #4
    Plane Touched DataWraith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    283

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarasyn View Post
    ok, but to be honest with the op, I lost interest in this entire wall of text as soon as I saw it was a wall of text.
    Honestly, same here.

  5. #5
    Plane Touched
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    297

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarasyn View Post
    ok, but to be honest with the op, I lost interest in this entire wall of text as soon as I saw it was a wall of text.
    Wall of words hits you for 10,000 damage. Yeah really no indentations, paragraphs or anything.

    Even if you had the best idea in the world not alot of people are going to read it beacuse its just sloppy writing.

  6. #6
    Soulwalker Hydrosine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    16

    Default

    I read it, Too long of a story.
    It is definitely true what he is telling but it needs to be more proper formatted for other people

    If you can bring this back to say 10 - 20 rules you reach a lot more people.

  7. #7
    Plane Touched wildcarde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Yorktown, VA
    Posts
    272

    Default

    It is a wall of text... but its a good read and something the devs should consider... I've never seem the point in class hopping for fotm, that's always been a pvp thing... I tank. Just tank... the other 5 or 6 souls might as well not even be there... and yes you can play rift the way you want because you pay your money... but imo you didn't pay enough to tell the devs anything but thank you and some constructive criticism

  8. #8
    Ascendant Delphya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    1,340

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tolon View Post
    Within the following lines I will address the problems which are spawned by the claim that the game we are all enjoying, is unfair, unbalanced and thus gives reason to the outcry that some classes or souls are far to strong - let’s not use the term “overpowered” which has a completely different meaning - or that the class currently played by those who give birth to this outcry, is just weak and puny.
    This mere collection of thoughts on the subject, will not help you if you just lost a game in the battlegrounds, in fact it might enrage you even more - if you are one of those people who think he lost because he is unable to kill anyone because everyone else is stronger then him - since the only solution to the problem at hand lies within the hands of the players, it will not be found in the changelog of some patch.
    But now to business, more matter with less art.
    Let’s look at a game of chess.
    A battle lead by two generals - the players of the match - and fought by pawns, knights, rooks, bishops and queens - the king is not really part of the actual battle, he is the objective.
    To the players eye the game of chess is fair.
    Both players have the same pieces, both of them have the same chance of winning.
    To the pawn on the other hand, the battle he is part of - and if we accept that this game is a representation of a battle, then it cannot be a game to the pieces fighting said battle - is extremely unfair.
    He has no real chance at winning against a queen, maybe some other pawn behind him might defeat the queen, but only if the first one sacrifices himself - or rather, the first one is sacrificed by the player.
    And there we have the first part of the problem.
    If you expect the game to be fair because it is a game with certain rules which must not allow one player to be at an unfair advantage, you are heading down the wrong path.
    We do not play the game, we are but pieces on the board of an abstract game played be the imaginary generals which lead either of the two factions.
    This abstract game - just like chess - is completely fair, simply because both factions have the same set of pieces - the classes and souls - to chose from.
    It would of course be no less fair if we patched the crap out of the game - the actual game, RIFT, not the abstract one mentioned above - so why shouldn't we “balance” the game?
    Because it is impossible.
    At the moment we have pawns, rooks, bishops, knights and queens on the board and right now, the pawns are most likely to proclaim that this game is unfair, because to them it is.
    So let’s imagine we listened to them.
    If we listened to the pawns, all queens would be weakened to become just as strong as a rook or a bishop, but now things are even more dire.
    Before this patch, the rooks and bishops were allied to the pawn in his struggle against the all-mighty queen, but now? Now the rooks and bishops are just as strong as the former queens and the pawns are still weak. And at an even weaker position because they lost their support.
    Now the will cry even louder to make up for that support, now he is the only one weaker than the rest.
    So we listen again.
    The pawn is patched, his powers increase and now he also is just as strong as a rook or bishop.
    So there we are, all we have now are rooks and bishops.
    Now the game is fair, isn’t it?
    Well, in theory, yes but... we’ll leave the but for later, first an other problem.
    Even if this theoretical fairness could be achieved, it would ruin the game.
    It makes for horribly boring fights.
    A rook beats a bishop just to be beaten by another rooks who is then taken of the board by a bishop and so on.
    Everyone just keeps getting killed, no one has fun.
    Does this mean, the situation now, where only the pawns don’t have fun is better?
    Yes, it is. For a couple of reasons.
    Firstly, there are not many pawns left, most of them have already crossed the board and have become rooks or bishops - how you ask? Just wait, it’ll be answered in the end.
    Secondly even those who are still pawns, are not forced to play pawns. You may choose your piece freely. To a certain extend and with certain limitations.
    Before you start screaming “But I don’t want to play another class, I want my class to be a queen!” let me tell you about those limitations.
    As you may have noticed, I have yet to mention a single class. You are left in the dark about which classes I consider to be queens and which are pawns.
    The answer is simple. None.
    To the best of my knowledge all classes are withing the rook-bishop spectrum. Of course some are more likely to become queens than others but the same holds true for becoming pawns.
    This goes some way towards explaining, why balancing is impossible, the difference between a queen and a pawn of the same class is mainly found in the equipment of the character, the experience of the player and the way he plays his character. I don’t mean to say “learn to play, moron” but rather, that there are differences in style of playing - none of which is right or wrong - which will influence the outcome of a fight.
    Since by this reasoning pawns can be found in all classes, you can’t get a completely balanced game whilst still leaving the individual classes.
    Back to keeping your current class.
    The solution is not found in making every class a queen - this would result in a game just as boring as the one with only rooks and bishops, be it a far shorter one.
    But again, you will have to wait for another couple of lines for the solution. Sorry.
    There may be some of you willing to change classes but saying “I am no good at playing that class (which will definitely become a queen, because it is far to strong), that’s unfair!”.
    Please, don’t do that. It makes you look pathetic. I for one am no good at music. I can neither sing nor play any instrument. This makes it much harder to become a famous pop star and by your logic, my inability to become filthy rich by singing is something I am allowed to moan about. It is not.
    Enough stray from the yellow brick road, let’s get back on the way towards the magical solution.
    To those still waiting for that “but” concerning the theoretically fair game, here it is.
    Such a game can only be existent in theory because every rook or bishop can become a pawn or a queen, and thus the existence of pawns can never be eliminated and thereby you will always have someone complaining.
    So now there is only one thing left. The solutions.
    There are three possibilities.
    Firstly, you could play another class or combination of souls to make it easier to become a queen. Luckily most players are not willing to do so or otherwise there would be far more queens about and far less complaining.
    Secondly, work hard on your current character to make him a queen. This solution will satisfy just as few as the first one, either they are unable or unwilling to spent the time and energy to get better then the other players. It’s not really fair if someone lacks the time, but then again, you won’t beat Muhammad Ali by buying some boxing gloves, there has to be some training involved.
    You could of course make it easier to gain the equipment to strengthen your character, but since then anyone would have the best equipment, there would not really be any change.
    The third and final solution I have to offer will involve the piece least mentioned until now. Don’t try to become a queen, become a knight.
    Leave the grid of horizontals, verticals and diagonals and start to jump. Attack in a way that others don’t think of, for example by choosing a unusual combination of souls.
    Having said all that all I can add is: A game of chess is not won by the pieces, it is won by a player and his tactic. So if all this won’t help you, get yourself someone to lead you to victory.

    And to the wonderful folks at Trion who provide us with this game: Please, stop messing with the classes. You will never please everyone and those of us who have nothing to complain about will not be found in the Forums but rather in the game they enjoy. Instead of wasting your time on this Sisyphean task of balancing, just work on the other things within the game that really need improving.
    Very well put and the analogies are great.

    Unlike others I have both the intelligence and patience to read your comment. I do not believe in a "wall of text" and since most college text books are "walls of text" I feel comfortable that when I get into college I will have no problem gleaning the information therein.

    I do like the comparison from individual chess pieces to each other and the game as a whole.
    Last edited by Delphya; 04-30-2011 at 03:57 AM.
    I don't like mean people, rude people and people who are not nice.

    Herp Derp : 1. An expression used when you yourself, has done somthing extremely stupid and dopey. 2. A phrase said by idiotic morons who think they are cooler then they actually are. *Dictionary definition

  9. #9
    Ascendant phoenixfire82's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    1,774

    Default

    im not as hip as delphya, couldn't be bothered.

  10. #10
    Soulwalker
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    13

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Delphya View Post
    Very well put and the analogies are great.

    Unlike others I have both the intelligence and patience to read your comment. I do not believe in a "wall of text" and since most college text books are "walls of text" I feel comfortable that when I get into college I will have no problem gleaning the information therein.

    I do like the comparison from individual chess pieces to each other and the game as a whole.
    Pretty sure "college text books" have indentation and formatting.

  11. #11
    Plane Touched
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    240

    Default

    Sorry Ill skip the wall of text. You just wasted your time since most people wont read that wall. lol

  12. #12
    Shadowlander
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    40

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Delphya View Post
    Very well put and the analogies are great.

    Unlike others I have both the intelligence and patience to read your comment. I do not believe in a "wall of text" and since most college text books are "walls of text" I feel comfortable that when I get into college I will have no problem gleaning the information therein.

    I do like the comparison from individual chess pieces to each other and the game as a whole.

    Get off your high horse. You're no more intelligent than anyone else here, and delusional if you truly believe that.

    BTW Find me a college text with no formatting, no spacing, no indents, no theses, no proper writing mechanics, because through two years of division 1 schooling I haven't found one such as this.

    On the subject of balance, it is supremely difficult to balance MMO's, and can never be perfectlya chieved. just give your feedback and hope they read it.
    Last edited by yevgenii; 04-30-2011 at 11:33 AM.

  13. #13
    Shadowlander
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    42

    Default

    Sorry but this is an mmo, it isnt a tactical game...

    Why??cuz the vast majority plays to win

    Therefore the only tactics u ll ever see is in premades and clans which are boring and win a boring one sided battle

    So better fix the game on a 1v1 level instead of lolfail 10% real teamwork ppl

    Ppl who usually ask for teamwork on wfs are just losers who cant feel better about themselves since they cant do anything alone and blame the team


    Perfect balance is close to impossible, good balance isnt, but if the devs have no idea how to actually design complex systems and mechanics and jsut rip off wow i dont expect a lot
    Last edited by wolfy2449; 04-30-2011 at 11:40 AM.

  14. #14
    Ascendant Delphya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    1,340

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by smthbrothrj View Post
    Pretty sure "college text books" have indentation and formatting.
    That is not what people are complaining about, it has more than 2 sentences it is a "wall of text".
    He does have punctuation (which puts him above many posters) and while indention is nice, he is not writing this post according to the APA standard.

    The sad thing is many people perceive they have a learning deficiency so they don't try.

    Which is sad...
    I don't like mean people, rude people and people who are not nice.

    Herp Derp : 1. An expression used when you yourself, has done somthing extremely stupid and dopey. 2. A phrase said by idiotic morons who think they are cooler then they actually are. *Dictionary definition

  15. #15
    Ascendant Delphya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    1,340

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by yevgenii View Post
    Get off your high horse. You're no more intelligent than anyone else here, and delusional if you truly believe that.

    BTW Find me a college text with no formatting, no spacing, no indents, no theses, no proper writing mechanics, because through two years of division 1 schooling I haven't found one such as this.

    On the subject of balance, it is supremely difficult to balance MMO's, and can never be perfectlya chieved. just give your feedback and hope they read it.
    What does Division 1 have to do with education, that is a sports thing.

    I am talking about people who go to college to get a useful degree and so something to better humanity, not someone is goes to college to play games and hopes to get over paid to play games for the rest of their life.
    I don't like mean people, rude people and people who are not nice.

    Herp Derp : 1. An expression used when you yourself, has done somthing extremely stupid and dopey. 2. A phrase said by idiotic morons who think they are cooler then they actually are. *Dictionary definition

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts