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Thread: Implementation of ranked GvG by utilization of current warfronts could save end-game

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Implementation of ranked GvG by utilization of current warfronts could save end-game

    Abstract
    Implementing a ranked guild versus guild mode could keep several subscriptions from players interested in PvP. PvP content is currently limited to raising prestige ranks and getting achievements, while there is no further competition besides rank 6. Adding a new mode with a ranking system could add additional content while being very easy to implement.

    Problem
    RIFT PvP has a great start, with an objective based system, which forces people to play together. However, for people that likes to group together there is very little gain besides beating non-groups.
    It has previously shown that adding deathmatch arenas for 2v2, 3v3 and 5v5 adds a lot of balancing and is unadvisable in a game, where PvE and PvP balancing already provides a problem. Therefore, a simple solution with maximal effect is required.

    Discussion
    In order to add a new ranked guild versus guild mode without adding to the complexity of current balancing a reuse of current PvP content could be advisable. Since it would not add additional balancing and use a system that many people already find enjoyable. While deathmatches has shown to be the preferred platform in many competitive games, objective based can add additional strategy and doesn't necessarily rely on who's killing the other most quickly as seen in games such as GuildWars etc.
    One of the smaller warfronts (Black Garden, The Codex) are readily suitable for competitive play for small groups of 5-10 and implementation would be easy.

    Conclusion
    Few steps are required to implement a ranked guild versus guild mode, with none to minimal further work required:

    1 Choose an existing warfront suitable for ranked play: Black Garden or The Codex are suitable, because of their relatively small sizes.
    2 Choose a group size: 5 or 10 would be suitable, however, 10 players would provide more viability and strategy.
    3 Add a queue system to enter a warfront as a guild.
    4 Add a PvP rank to all guilds that are elo based.

    Later implementations could include ladders on the website that displays current guild rankings and titles rewarded for staying above a specific elo. Also this could be a stepping stone for tournaments.

    This is not a final formula, and people are more than welcome to comment/critique.

  2. #2
    Rift Disciple
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    The idea isnt bad but someday games devs have to realise that for great PvP action balance and instance is funkilling. Having guild housing and guild wars on open area would be kick ***, RBG (Rated BattleGrounds) all over again would be a failure just like for WoW. Very long queue, tight setups, rules problems, not popular and very elitist.

  3. #3
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by innocent51 View Post
    The idea isnt bad but someday games devs have to realise that for great PvP action balance and instance is funkilling. Having guild housing and guild wars on open area would be kick ***, RBG (Rated BattleGrounds) all over again would be a failure just like for WoW. Very long queue, tight setups, rules problems, not popular and very elitist.
    It is a fine line. If you see Call of Duty, you will have 20 or so different gamemodes and people will be spread thin, however, if you think about GuildWars for a long time queueing times were not that bad. This was the reason as to why only one warfront was chosen as to be rated in the proposal.

    Setups doesn't necessarily need to be tight in either game as several viable specs are available in RIFT and you can focus on having a spike build or a pressure build.

    It's too early to say if it'd be popular or elitist, but a little elitism never hurts .

    I agree on that open world PvP would be awesome, and another idea I had was to give guilds a reward for killing in open world. Not an item reward, but again titles and point ladders, which encourages competition.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by xSake View Post
    It is a fine line. If you see Call of Duty, you will have 20 or so different gamemodes and people will be spread thin, however, if you think about GuildWars for a long time queueing times were not that bad. This was the reason as to why only one warfront was chosen as to be rated in the proposal.

    Setups doesn't necessarily need to be tight in either game as several viable specs are available in RIFT and you can focus on having a spike build or a pressure build.

    It's too early to say if it'd be popular or elitist, but a little elitism never hurts .

    I agree on that open world PvP would be awesome, and another idea I had was to give guilds a reward for killing in open world. Not an item reward, but again titles and point ladders, which encourages competition.
    Tittles, ladders and showoff items are generally a great motivation actually. Dont ask my why.

    Elitism is bad, because it turns down a huge chunk of the player base. Ask around who on WoW actually does RBG. Its a very very little people. Guild "challenge" doesnt make it much more popular.
    On my WoW guild (high end PvE very numerous guild), only 4 or 5 of us were doing serious arena and RBG. But many ppl were up for old Hillsbrad struggle or KelDanas ganking. Most ppl doesnt actually like when its fair, and it only leads to cookcutter specs and tight setups (yeah, seriously even on RIFT). Ppl like epic, war, running to guards, zerging down a guy with 10vs1, fighting endless Alterac Valeys, standing far and throwing rain of death wearing PvE gear or ambushing this PvE caster to show him who his daddy is.

    Its a nice thing you take Call of Duty as an exemple. Because I think that what lost WoW to me (and along many other MMO trying to copy it) is that they forgot the RPG part of the game to promote fair, Esport'able and dull playgrounds.
    I mean, if the goal is to end up playing mirror setups (hello RMP) with equivalent gear because only skill matters, why do we even need to subscribe to an MMORPG?
    Last edited by innocent51; 04-21-2011 at 03:26 AM.

  5. #5
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by innocent51 View Post
    Tittles, ladders and showoff items are generally a great motivation actually. Dont ask my why.

    Elitism is bad, because it turns down a huge chunk of the player base. Ask around who on WoW actually does RBG. Its a very very little people. Guild "challenge" doesnt make it much more popular.
    On my WoW guild (high end PvE very numerous guild), only 4 or 5 of us were doing serious arena and RBG. But many ppl were up for old Hillsbrad struggle or KelDanas ganking. Most ppl doesnt actually like when its fair, and it only leads to cookcutter specs and tight setups (yeah, seriously even on RIFT). Ppl like epic, war, running to guards, zerging down a guy with 10vs1, fighting endless Alterac Valeys, standing far and throwing rain of death wearing PvE gear or ambushing this PvE caster to show him who his daddy is.

    Its a nice thing you take Call of Duty as an exemple. Because I think that what lost WoW to me (and along many other MMO trying to copy it) is that they forgot the RPG part of the game to promote fair, Esport'able and dull playgrounds.
    I mean, if the goal is to end up playing mirror setups (hello RMP) with equivalent gear because only skill matters, why do we even need to subscribe to an MMORPG?
    The thing is that you will always have elitism and there is nothing you can do about it, however, using a elo ranking system will seperate the elitists from the rest, and ensure that everyone has a fair chance to play some kind of competitive play.

    Sure RGBs failed in WoW, but people are already playing premades in warfronts and if only one warfront is made ranked then people will not be spread thin.

    I agree that cookiecutter builds will be made, but that is what PvP is about. Being #1 and beating the rest, but that does not necessarily make the fights less dynamic or interesting. Mirror fights does not need to be a stalemate, with different tactics and player skill. They can be epic, be a stomp, a loss, a turnaround or anything you want them to be.

    The problem with large scale world PvP so far is that the game is not really prepared for it yet.
    The distribution of defiants and guardians tends to be very skewed, and would be a stomping of either faction. This was also the case with Aion and measurements are definently needed if this should be considered. Secondly no real awards are gained by doing them so no one does them.

  6. #6
    Soulwalker
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    loving the idea, but, even IF the devs like this, and even IF the devs are actually planing it, dont expect it to be implemented in less than at least a year.

    the next half year will be slow balance patches, some pve end game content patches. i dont expect anything to change in pvp, they made it clear that this is not a priority, and that they can always just focus on one small topic at a time.

    hello gw2, i hope they get a better pvp start

  7. #7
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by xscoex View Post
    loving the idea, but, even IF the devs like this, and even IF the devs are actually planing it, dont expect it to be implemented in less than at least a year.

    the next half year will be slow balance patches, some pve end game content patches. i dont expect anything to change in pvp, they made it clear that this is not a priority, and that they can always just focus on one small topic at a time.

    hello gw2, i hope they get a better pvp start
    Yes, it seems like this is not a subscription based game PvP-wise, but instead PvE-wise. While the PvP is fun there's nothing more to do once you've reached rank 6, whereas this is to some extent also the case PvE-wise, it seems like updates and additional raids are coming along.

    I also hope that gw2 gets a better PvP start, but who knows. It is not like they really shared any info on it yet.

  8. #8
    Plane Touched Arieswar's Avatar
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    You would have to merge clusters. My guild is the only guild that premades regularly on my group.

  9. #9
    Shield of Telara
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    pvp wont die just because some wannabe E sporties cant get their jollies, WoW's pvp was fine it was actually superior untill arena's came along and destroyed open pvp

  10. #10
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arieswar View Post
    You would have to merge clusters. My guild is the only guild that premades regularly on my group.
    Of course, merging all shards into one pool would be optimal. I never understood the idea of seperating the the servers into several PvP groups.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bejita View Post
    pvp wont die just because some wannabe E sporties cant get their jollies, WoW's pvp was fine it was actually superior untill arena's came along and destroyed open pvp
    This game is very limited in open world PvP, so I am not sure why you would argue that a ranked PvP system would destroy something not existing. The current objective of RIFT PvP is a grind towards better gear and better skills, so an implementation of a ranked warfront system would just be a way to use that grind. I do not see how this will destroy anything.

  11. #11
    Rift Disciple Lostsoulz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xSake View Post
    Of course, merging all shards into one pool would be optimal. I never understood the idea of seperating the the servers into several PvP groups.



    This game is very limited in open world PvP, so I am not sure why you would argue that a ranked PvP system would destroy something not existing. The current objective of RIFT PvP is a grind towards better gear and better skills, so an implementation of a ranked warfront system would just be a way to use that grind. I do not see how this will destroy anything.
    how about we make world pvp exist through adding world pvp instruments ? or in some cases removing pvp restrictions on pvp servers (like guards, safe zones ..etc ) . how about do some of these things instead of doing more instanced pvp ****. because atm there's plenty of it ..

    i got one , lets make guilds on the same faction have a war feature , like SWG had . 2 guilds agree to go to war, and they are opened to kill each other any where , all day . but first remove the npc guards and safe zones ..
    Last edited by Lostsoulz; 04-21-2011 at 08:31 AM.
    Remove all PVP from PVE servers . they're not PVP'rs , they are the bane of PVP'rs and PVP servers .

    Remove WF's from PVE servers, because they suck at pvp and as a result cause unjust nerfs to classes .

    No new instanced PVP , give us world PVP objectives. do not add arena's or more WF's please . Except ADD THIS ONE WF

    Make all PVP gear craftable and get rid of the WF faction vendors .

    pvp isnt suppose to be about gear . pve is suppose to be about gear ...and grinding that same ****ty instance over and over again for that gear .
    pvp is suppose to be about the other part of the game ...war and hatred for the opposite faction .
    and pve servers are for the players who don't want to be a part of the war

  12. #12
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lostsoulz View Post
    how about we make world pvp exist through adding world pvp instruments ? or in some cases removing pvp restrictions on pvp servers (like guards, safe zones ..etc ) . how about do some of these things instead of doing more instanced pvp ****. because atm there's plenty of it ..

    i got one , lets make guilds on the same faction have a war feature , like SWG had . 2 guilds agree to go to war, and they are opened to kill each other any where , all day . but first remove the npc guards and safe zones ..
    I agree that this is a different road to take, which would be fun aswell and while world PvP could be encouraged, I do not think what you ask for can be easily implemented.

    As I see it, what we could hope for is:
    1) Balancing of the factions
    2) Rewards for open world PvP
    3) Open world PvP objectives, that does not interfere with PvE
    4) New zone
    I like the idea behind allowing factions to go to war, but I cannot see it fitting in RIFT.

    I would, however, still argue that there is not enough instanced PvP, as none of it is elo based.

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