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Thread: The Ultimate Discussion: Handeling of PRE-MADE vs PUG's

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple Davador's Avatar
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    Default The Ultimate Discussion: Handeling of PRE-MADE vs PUG's

    It seems like it's a big talked about issue and I thought it's in the best interest of all we all create 1 topic and consolidate everyone's ideas and comments on this issue.

    Issue:

    As guilds mature and things become more competitive, the average and new player will find it much harder to gain favor and accomplish some of the achievements and other criteria when the field of play is more organized. This a logical issue and coming from an organized hardcore PvP guild as much as I want to have an edge over the norm, I have to accept that this does pose problems that us as a community need to avoid on unbalance.

    My take to handle this:

    Keep the current queue for solo and duo's (2 people max can group up) to be able to queue. Make subtle change in the UI or adding a tab with timer next to the name on when it will be ready (more on this under the idea section) or add another mini-menu circle button and create a brand out of it, call it tournaments or whatever.

    Idea:
    Produce a separate timed (Every hour or so with widespread message when its ready) with a 5 minute countdown when it's ready where groups can form and queue. The reasoning behind this it will actually will increase participation from pre-mades but also include some kinda of extra reward as motivational participation as well. 10% increase favor?

    The algorithm:
    It would check all shards and match up groups. Lets say there's a group of 5 and another a group 7, it will take 2 solo queue from the normal queue and fill them in with the 5 so it will be 7 vs 7. As far as class balance that won't be much of an issue since the group is knowingly queuing up a group providing the assumption they are prepared which is highly the case.


    Conclusion
    This is just a quick summary, excuse my spelling and grammar if there's any issue. I'm writing this fast before I leave work.

    Everyone please comment and please be understanding that this will be a big issue more and more down the road and we need to establish a good positive discussion with backing up points and no "Hell no that's gay" etc. Let's have a good discussion here....with support on your answer

    EDIT: My idea comes from a game that handled it well..Global Agenda
    Last edited by Davador; 04-19-2011 at 04:31 PM.

  2. #2
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davador View Post
    It seems like it's a big talked about issue and I thought it's in the best interest of all we all create 1 topic and consolidate everyone's ideas and comments on this issue.

    Issue:

    As guilds mature and things become more competitive, the average and new player will find it much harder to gain favor and accomplish some of the achievements and other criteria when the field of play is more organized. This a logical issue and coming from an organized hardcore PvP guild as much as I want to have an edge over the norm, I have to accept that this does pose problems that us as a community need to avoid on unbalance.

    My take to handle this:

    Keep the current queue for solo and duo's (2 people max can group up) to be able to queue. Make subtle change in the UI or adding a tab with timer next to the name on when it will be ready (more on this under the idea section) or add another mini-menu circle button and create a brand out of it, call it tournaments or whatever.

    Idea:
    Produce a separate timed (Every hour or so with widespread message when its ready) with a 5 minute countdown when it's ready where groups can form and queue. The reasoning behind this it will actually will increase participation from pre-mades but also include some kinda of extra reward as motivational participation as well. 10% increase favor?

    The algorithm:
    It would check all shards and match up groups. Lets say there's a group of 5 and another a group 7, it will take 2 solo queue from the normal queue and fill them in with the 5 so it will be 7 vs 7. As far as class balance that won't be much of an issue since the group is knowingly queuing up a group providing the assumption they are prepared which is highly the case.


    Conclusion
    This is just a quick summary, excuse my spelling and grammar if there's any issue. I'm writing this fast before I leave work.

    Everyone please comment and please be understanding that this will be a big issue more and more down the road and we need to establish a good positive discussion with backing up points and no "Hell no that's gay" etc. Let's have a good discussion here....with support on your answer

    EDIT: My idea comes from a game that handled it well..Global Agenda
    All the solo's go together.

    Anyone with 2+ go to the grp version

    Allow raids to form and do WF's against other raids.

    Create and add in a WF window with the Queue.

    no fancy code. Job done. Now to finish that bright wizards err pyro nerf.

    Trion could also cut and paste the arena from WOW, as they have done with most other parts of the game.
    Last edited by Pyrolytic; 04-19-2011 at 04:56 PM.
    "Awesome group seeks 4 more"

  3. #3
    Champion of Telara The Real Viz Shady's Avatar
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    Yep, this needed yet another thread..

  4. #4
    Rift Disciple Davador's Avatar
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    I'm trying to consolidate all suggestions. Please continue guys to show favor on this and try to get the developers attention on this.

  5. #5
    Rift Disciple Davador's Avatar
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    Okay I'm bumping this for all to read to those who missed it.

    THIS IS MORE of a problem than I thought when I reached 50 couple days ago! and wow I can now relate more and more to this problem.

    I truly hope this gets fixed otherwise the joy I find in PvP being "COMPETITIVE" is not there anymore....

    Separate Pre-made from PUG's End of Story... at-least give us an indication that its being worked out and we will see change VERY SOON...

  6. #6
    Sword of Telara
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    NO NO.

    if you premade, when as duo it's to evil.
    image a Pyro with a damn pocket healer, this can't be allowed.
    not against a pug with no communication, or some fools not even know what they doing.

    you wanna play with friends you have to complete against other premades, fair game

  7. #7
    Rift Disciple Davador's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abisha View Post
    NO NO.

    if you premade, when as duo it's to evil.
    image a Pyro with a damn pocket healer, this can't be allowed.
    not against a pug with no communication, or some fools not even know what they doing.

    you wanna play with friends you have to complete against other premades, fair game
    That is a separate issue, Pyro needs to be fixed ASAP. Having a team-mate to team up with provided only 2 max is fine... it provides friends to constantly be able to queue instead of waiting an hour.. the issue again you speak of is a class issue and separate.

  8. #8
    Sword of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davador View Post
    That is a separate issue, Pyro needs to be fixed ASAP. Having a team-mate to team up with provided only 2 max is fine... it provides friends to constantly be able to queue instead of waiting an hour.. the issue again you speak of is a class issue and separate.
    i rater wait a hour on a game, then faceing a premade, i just quit like anyone other sud do.
    it shows how the state of the game is in now

  9. #9
    Rift Disciple Davador's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abisha View Post
    i rater wait a hour on a game, then faceing a premade, i just quit like anyone other sud do.
    it shows how the state of the game is in now
    I'm with you, but if the issue of Pyro gets solved then the max of 2 can group up is okay... the reasoning behind every 1 hour is to produce high volume of attendance. In any case the general issue of PvP is there and I used to work for Blizzard Entertainment and other gaming companies (Now I work outside the gaming industry) having a MAJOR element of the game broken and not competitive will kill the fun FAST and this MUST be a high issue and fixed soon... most importantly they need to COMMUNICATE with us giving us an indication atleast that they are working on it. Otherwise I have to assume they are not and risk losing revenue there not just from me but anyone else who is seeing this is a major problem

  10. #10
    Shadowlander
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    Default warfront mechanics

    I personally believe the reason this community is so anti-gear/anti-premade has to do with the punishing nature of the Warfront mechanics themselves.

    I believe these mechanics also lend to poor PvP motivation, in and of themselves.

    I'm sure Trion can run the numbers on what x% is. I won't bother making up a number as I'm sure individual experiences vary, but anyone who's got a fair amount of experience with the warfronts will understand the point:

    Black Garden -
    1. first encounter winner holds ball and wins x%;
    2. regroup location is camped;
    3. red damage buff balls access is advantaged first encounter winner


    Port of Scion -
    1. first encounter winner holds bridge
    2. first encounter winner restricts access to south stone and church
    3. stones turnins buff damage, healing and reduce damage taken
    4. stones stop being turned in at high buff levels to farm players (losing team with no chance of turning the game around forced to endure more camping or AFK)

    Codex -
    1. mario power-ups more accessible to first encounter winner
    2. losing team spawn camped for points

    Suggestions:
    Lose the power ups
    Lose the buffs
    Increase the protective barrier at spawns
    Potentially introduce underdog mechanics

    Until these issues are addressed, any issues with gear gap or premades are just exacerbated beyond entertaining, and player frustration will understandably result.



    My opinion on premades and gear queues, sounds like a recipe for queueing disasters.

    Just one example from an earlier thread on the topic:

    What happens when most of the players are well geared and there's few queueing for the gimp geared queues?

  11. #11
    Rift Disciple Davador's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wunahokalugi View Post
    I personally believe the reason this community is so anti-gear/anti-premade has to do with the punishing nature of the Warfront mechanics themselves.

    I believe these mechanics also lend to poor PvP motivation, in and of themselves.

    I'm sure Trion can run the numbers on what x% is. I won't bother making up a number as I'm sure individual experiences vary, but anyone who's got a fair amount of experience with the warfronts will understand the point:

    Black Garden -
    1. first encounter winner holds ball and wins x%;
    2. regroup location is camped;
    3. red damage buff balls access is advantaged first encounter winner


    Port of Scion -
    1. first encounter winner holds bridge
    2. first encounter winner restricts access to south stone and church
    3. stones turnins buff damage, healing and reduce damage taken
    4. stones stop being turned in at high buff levels to farm players (losing team with no chance of turning the game around forced to endure more camping or AFK)

    Codex -
    1. mario power-ups more accessible to first encounter winner
    2. losing team spawn camped for points

    Suggestions:
    Lose the power ups
    Lose the buffs
    Increase the protective barrier at spawns
    Potentially introduce underdog mechanics

    Until these issues are addressed, any issues with gear gap or premades are just exacerbated beyond entertaining, and player frustration will understandably result.



    My opinion on premades and gear queues, sounds like a recipe for queueing disasters.

    Just one example from an earlier thread on the topic:

    What happens when most of the players are well geared and there's few queueing for the gimp geared queues?
    Well written, and that's exactly what is happening as you described it. I'm sure is well aware that PvP community as a very outspoken group and if we don't hear soon we don't have the patience to wait, we want CLOSE competitive gaming and that's currently not seen when a player hits 50.

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