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Thread: Invisibility is bad design in any PvP game: a rant.

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    Plane Touched
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    Default Invisibility is bad design in any PvP game: a rant.

    DISCLAIMER: (in case the thread title and the subsequent post below isn't enough ) My complaints about player invisibility in gaming are hardly specific to RIFT. If you just want to say "QQ" or "ubad" knock yourself out, but don't expect me to cry about it.

    Anyway, I realized last week that the last three titles I had purchased: RIFT, Global Agenda and Monday Night Combat--2 MMO's and a shooter--all featured activated, class-specific player invisibility.

    I do not understand why this has become a convention of competitive gaming.

    Now, I've played and enjoyed some stealth games. They're not my cup of tea per se, but I can understand the appeal on a basic level. Sneaking up on enemies can be fun, and despite my complaints I can understand the desire to add that to a game. But what I don't understand is why "complete invisibility lolz" is the method by which game designers elect to do this--in shooters and MMO's especially. You can't counter invisibility in a conventional sense--generally the only drawback to invisibility skills involve cost or some other limitation(s) that the player has to deal with himself. In most games, invisibility seems to act as a "turn the game into single player for a few seconds/minutes" switch and that's bad design for anything multiplayer.

    Personally--and I may be in the minority here--I find this to be more annoying than losing character control in all but the most extreme cases. CC might take one person out of the fight for a few seconds, but invisibility takes the entire opposing team out of the equation, at least insofar as the invisible player is concerned, for the duration of the ability.

    Now, I'm not saying invisibility (especially in this game as I haven't used it) is "broken," but I do consider it a bad convention of game design as per the thread title and in general a crutch for the talentless. I know there have been many older games that featured invisibility, but it seems more and more like the concept is making its way into modern FPS and MMO games and that's a trend I'm not happy with. Ten years ago, I didn't have to worry about invisible players running around my games, and that's the way I liked it, dammit!

    inb4 butthurt, I've only actually died to cloaked players in this game a handful of times. Besides, if I wanted to make a butthurt post it'd probably have more to do with being ripped off by the healer!

    also inb4 OP can't inb4

    let the flames begin

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    General of Telara Tugrath's Avatar
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    Because all the pimply faced twinks like to wave their epeen around by saying 'hahaha you can't kill me because I have in combat stealth'

    This is a whole boatload of subs who only play a game if they can stealth.
    Don't mind me, I'm just being an idiot.

    What you did there, I see it.

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    Plane Touched johnflesh's Avatar
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    This is my first time trying a stealth class though I played a mage in WoW as an alt, which had invisibility for a limited time. I have to say it is refreshing even if my complexion is clear.

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    Ascendant Sinndel's Avatar
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    I actually agree with you, and have said something similar in the past. When did "hiding" mean you can turn invisible? Every game's doing it now. The worst thing with having it in RIFT however, is they didn't have the forsight to include stealth detection abilities. So the best you can do is wild AOE and hope you hit something.
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    Oh, a point I somehow managed to leave out concerning invisibility balance:

    In Global Agenda, cloaking is actually kind of bad. Of the three games I listed, I think it is most powerful in RIFT, okay in MNC and bad in GA. But here's the kicker: cloaks that are ineffective in a game (e.g. "bad") can mess up said game just as bad or even worse than it does when they are pro. In Global Agenda, cloak is terrible; as a result the game suffers because stealth in general is so popular and people do it anyway. Now, I don't find so far that its use in RIFT is excessive, but it is a trend I hope to discourage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinndel View Post
    I actually agree with you, and have said something similar in the past. When did "hiding" mean you can turn invisible? Every game's doing it now. The worst thing with having it in RIFT however, is they didn't have the forsight to include stealth detection abilities. So the best you can do is wild AOE and hope you hit something.
    Yeah, I wondered about that today. I will confess the OP was (surprise surprise) triggered by an encounter with a stealth player; although since he came from behind after I had finished off a mob, he killed me before I even knew what class he was much less that his soul configuration featured stealth. I didn't know he was a cloaker until I went looking for him following my respawn. We fought briefly; he brought me down to 10% HP or so but as soon as I rallied and started winning LOL INVISIBLE
    Last edited by Arkanfel; 04-11-2011 at 07:51 AM.

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    Rift Disciple Lopi's Avatar
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    OP, so you come in here and complain about stealth for rogues... but do not provide a work around or another way to handle it? At least in rift the stealth is temporary and not like the other game I shall not mention where a rogue can walk all over in stealth.

    Oh and I play a paladin so no I am not a rogue.

    I do not mind folks having an issue with something, but if your going to bi*ch about it come up with a workaround or a solution to the issue.

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    Rift Chaser Zylla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinndel View Post
    I actually agree with you, and have said something similar in the past. When did "hiding" mean you can turn invisible? Every game's doing it now. The worst thing with having it in RIFT however, is they didn't have the forsight to include stealth detection abilities. So the best you can do is wild AOE and hope you hit something.
    Is it really that if you are 50 and the rogue is 50 you have no way of seeing them and no one has any sort of "see hidden stuff"? I'm assuming you can see lower levels.
    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    np feel free to ask. The general forums are useful, but we argue in other threads to pass the time at work

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkanfel View Post
    Yeah, I wondered about that today. I will confess the OP was (surprise surprise) triggered by an encounter with a stealth player; although since he came from behind after I had finished off a mob, he killed me before I even knew what class he was much less that his soul configuration featured stealth. I didn't know he was a cloaker until I went looking for him following my respawn. We fought briefly; he brought me down to 10% HP or so but as soon as I rallied and started winning LOL INVISIBLE
    Put dot's on him. I realize it's not the best concept ever but rogue's are already overpowered - don't take anymore away from them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lopi View Post
    OP, so you come in here and complain about stealth for rogues... but do not provide a work around or another way to handle it? At least in rift the stealth is temporary and not like the other game I shall not mention where a rogue can walk all over in stealth.
    Work arounds or "ways to handle it" are not my concern, as I am not a game developer. I am merely registering my distaste with a component of the product: I don't have to know how to make an apple pie to be able to tell that the apples are rotten.

    Frankly, there probably isn't any practical work-around as far as RIFT is concerned, save possibly for the addition of detection abilities but even that would require some soul/skill alterations that I am not qualified to suppose. Stealth is certainly here so stay in RIFT, so it's not really my intention to offer a nerf/buff or other balance suggestion: I guess what I'm saying is more a message to developers in general than to Trion or RIFT.
    Last edited by Arkanfel; 04-11-2011 at 08:00 AM.

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    Champion of Telara Angelstar's Avatar
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    I wonder if there is an class that Rift players don't want to be nerft.
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    (assassin spec on pvp, since im assuming thats what the OP was referring to)

    I can kill anyone 1 on 1. I stuggle with certain classes, but can take out any class. My advice to you (if talking about a warfront) dont stray from the pack. You never complain about stealth when a rogue pops out, and gets hit by 2-3 and dies in seconds.

    Maybe stealth is op, maybe not. Not exactly arguing that, just giving some advice. We cant 1 shot people, so having good reaction times, and not being far away from friends helps a lot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Afyael View Post
    Put dot's on him. I realize it's not the best concept ever but rogue's are already overpowered - don't take anymore away from them.
    Oh, I did. The actual "fighting" part of the fight went just fine, if a little hectic. I was just popping off DoTs and my instant cast DD spells while trying to maneuver away from him (wtb collision detection, by the way). Up until a few seconds before he popped his cloak, it could have gone either way. It went back and forth for about a dozen seconds, and he went invisible when he realized he wasn't going to win.
    Last edited by Arkanfel; 04-11-2011 at 07:59 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkanfel View Post
    Frankly, there probably isn't any practical work-around as far as RIFT is concerned, save possibly for the addition of detection abilities but even that would require some soul/skill alterations that I am not qualified to suppose. Stealth is certainly here so stay in RIFT, so it's not really my intention to offer a nerf/buff or other balance suggestion: I guess what I'm saying is more a message to developers in general than to Trion or RIFT.
    There are other ways they could mitigate the problem, such as requiring shadows to stealth effectively (like AoC, for example), giving it a cooldown that is longer than the duration so it can't be reapplied instantly, etc.

    What bugs me the most are/is the escape ability(s). I'm beating on a rogue and all the sudden they just fade away (or even pop in and out of sight while all I see on screen is IMMUNE IMMUNE IMMUNE. Really? let's set aside the whole stealth/sneaking ≠ invisible argument for a second, why does stealth = invulnerable?
    Noco@Wolfsbane

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    Ascendant Cascadesbiker's Avatar
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    Once in combat mode you shouldnt be able to invis again until the combat ends


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