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Thread: Healing must scale in PVP.

  1. #1
    Champion of Telara xaed's Avatar
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    Default Healing must scale in PVP.

    Healers are designed to heal tanks in a raid situation where a boss can hit for about 3k, and crit for about 5k. Players - aside from mages - will never reach those amounts of numbers, making healers a somewhat overpowered utility class in group and solo PvP. Something has to be done about the insane amount of healing they can output. I'm not crying nerf, but PvP healing has to be inline with PvP damage and it must scale accordingly. Trion once said that it does not PvP scenarios to be "whoever has the most healers wins," but as it stands, that's the way it currently is; that or "whoever has the most pyros wins."

    I'd like to put forth a simple damage check for healers. If the target of their heal was damaged by a player within the last 8 seconds, the heal should only be about 60% - 70% effective.
    A PRO QUOTE BELOW:
    Quote Originally Posted by Stigas View Post
    You seem to be happy with Eradicate. I'm glad. The longer it stays in, the better. It's a non-threat spec. You're there to Purge things. I can avoid that by either making sure you're focused first, to which you have no answer, or I can go Pyro or SC and let you Eradicate all day.

  2. #2
    Telaran
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    I couldn't agree more. In our warfronts, the winner is usually who has the most clerics. I don't think it's as much the healing output, it's the fact that if they're specced correctly , they DO NOT die. Get a few of them, make it like 5-6 of them and your DPS and doesn't really matter.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    Plane Walker Riftrox's Avatar
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    Healing before 40 and healing after 40 are two very different animals. Before 40, say in Whitefall I could literally go get the 'Fang' solo. Fully HoT my self and run back with e DPS on my back. After 40 that is impossible.

    A healer needs to be able to survive focus of X factor. Games determine what that X factor is, but never the less the X factor exists. Meaning a single DPS should never be able to solo a healer in PvP.

    Once you have established that a single DPS should never be able to solo a healer who is healing her self, now determine how much more DPS would it be ok for that healer to soak or tank before she can not keep her self up any more.

    If a healer can be downed by 2-3 DPS, which is the case in Rift then it becomes the best tactic in the game. So much so, every other tactic delivers far less value than simply training a healer.

    What you want is a game that motivates people to have different strategies that utilize class and game mechanics using both player skill and talents as well as terrain.

    I actually feel PvP healing should be boosted. Training the healer should not be the predominate and clear winning strategy for each and every PvP encounter.

  4. #4
    Jav
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riftrox View Post
    Healing before 40 and healing after 40 are two very different animals. Before 40, say in Whitefall I could literally go get the 'Fang' solo. Fully HoT my self and run back with e DPS on my back. After 40 that is impossible.

    A healer needs to be able to survive focus of X factor. Games determine what that X factor is, but never the less the X factor exists. Meaning a single DPS should never be able to solo a healer in PvP.

    Once you have established that a single DPS should never be able to solo a healer who is healing her self, now determine how much more DPS would it be ok for that healer to soak or tank before she can not keep her self up any more.

    If a healer can be downed by 2-3 DPS, which is the case in Rift then it becomes the best tactic in the game. So much so, every other tactic delivers far less value than simply training a healer.

    What you want is a game that motivates people to have different strategies that utilize class and game mechanics using both player skill and talents as well as terrain.

    I actually feel PvP healing should be boosted. Training the healer should not be the predominate and clear winning strategy for each and every PvP encounter.
    Healers are not meant to be gods in PvP.

    Whoever has the most HEALING clerics wins period. Even in the case of those who think you should be able to tank 2 to 3 players at a time.
    Last edited by Walsingham; 04-11-2011 at 09:21 AM. Reason: Insulting Comments

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by xaed View Post
    Healers are designed to heal tanks in a raid situation where a boss can hit for about 3k, and crit for about 5k. Players - aside from mages - will never reach those amounts of numbers, making healers a somewhat overpowered utility class in group and solo PvP. Something has to be done about the insane amount of healing they can output. I'm not crying nerf, but PvP healing has to be inline with PvP damage and it must scale accordingly. Trion once said that it does not PvP scenarios to be "whoever has the most healers wins," but as it stands, that's the way it currently is; that or "whoever has the most pyros wins."

    I'd like to put forth a simple damage check for healers. If the target of their heal was damaged by a player within the last 8 seconds, the heal should only be about 60% - 70% effective.
    Sometimes (mmmh always) when I read the forums I think that I play a different game.

    Have you ever played a 50 cleric in Rift? If you use the same PvE souls (that grant your tank survival) in PvP probably you'll arrive last on the healing report.
    In a doungeon you will focus your equip/spec only to the healing (also the ones with 3 seconds of cast time) but in a Warfront is useless; there are too many CC with to short cooldowns. In a Warfront today the best healing spec is based on istant casts and survival.

    If you focus a healer alone, or you have a great burst damage or is right that you die (slowly... the best choice is go away, you have the time).

    ...If any player can solo kill a healer then you must have more healer than the other class or is impossible to remain alive... <-- Nonsense

    PS: in the next warfronts try to assist someone of your team and try to silence/stun/banish/fear the opposite cleric instead of tickling him alone.
    Lotty <The Eldars> - 11L3 Druid @ DAoC [OFF]
    Lorella <GoodFellas> - 80 Guardian @ AoC [OFF]
    Lorella <GoodFelląs> - 40 Archmage @ WAR [Waiting]
    Lorella <GoodFellas> - 50 Cleric @ Aion [OFF]


    Lorella <GoodFellas> - 50 Cleric @ RIFT Whitefall [ON]

    In a far future Clerics will play 5 or 6 seconds continuosly in a Warfront without a CC.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jav View Post
    who thinks you should be able to tank 2 to 3 players at a time.
    Non for forever but only for the time that my mates need to kill this other 3 players; like in all the other games that you see in my signature.
    Lotty <The Eldars> - 11L3 Druid @ DAoC [OFF]
    Lorella <GoodFellas> - 80 Guardian @ AoC [OFF]
    Lorella <GoodFelląs> - 40 Archmage @ WAR [Waiting]
    Lorella <GoodFellas> - 50 Cleric @ Aion [OFF]


    Lorella <GoodFellas> - 50 Cleric @ RIFT Whitefall [ON]

    In a far future Clerics will play 5 or 6 seconds continuosly in a Warfront without a CC.

  7. #7
    Champion of Telara xaed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorella View Post
    Sometimes (mmmh always) when I read the forums I think that I play a different game.

    Have you ever played a 50 cleric in Rift? If you use the same PvE souls (that grant your tank survival) in PvP probably you'll arrive last on the healing report.
    In a doungeon you will focus your equip/spec only to the healing (also the ones with 3 seconds of cast time) but in a Warfront is useless; there are too many CC with to short cooldowns. In a Warfront today the best healing spec is based on istant casts and survival.

    If you focus a healer alone, or you have a great burst damage or is right that you die (slowly... the best choice is go away, you have the time).

    ...If any player can solo kill a healer then you must have more healer than the other class or is impossible to remain alive... <-- Nonsense

    PS: in the next warfronts try to assist someone of your team and try to silence/stun/banish/fear the opposite cleric instead of tickling him alone.
    I have no idea what you're talking about, then again, neither do you. Name me one, just one class aside from a pure pyro that can "burst" a healer down?
    A PRO QUOTE BELOW:
    Quote Originally Posted by Stigas View Post
    You seem to be happy with Eradicate. I'm glad. The longer it stays in, the better. It's a non-threat spec. You're there to Purge things. I can avoid that by either making sure you're focused first, to which you have no answer, or I can go Pyro or SC and let you Eradicate all day.

  8. #8
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by xaed View Post
    I have no idea what you're talking about, then again, neither do you. Name me one, just one class aside from a pure pyro that can "burst" a healer down?
    No one can solo kill a healer (exept pyro) without thinking. If you randomly press your 1 2 3 keys without evaluating what the inc needs you will never kill a healer. You must use your CC with the right timing and discharge your burst damage when it's needed. On a Healer an assist is preferrable.

    Ah, you also need to check if you're detaunted or you waste time.
    Lotty <The Eldars> - 11L3 Druid @ DAoC [OFF]
    Lorella <GoodFellas> - 80 Guardian @ AoC [OFF]
    Lorella <GoodFelląs> - 40 Archmage @ WAR [Waiting]
    Lorella <GoodFellas> - 50 Cleric @ Aion [OFF]


    Lorella <GoodFellas> - 50 Cleric @ RIFT Whitefall [ON]

    In a far future Clerics will play 5 or 6 seconds continuosly in a Warfront without a CC.

  9. #9
    Shield of Telara
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    I'm sorry but the game would be completely broken if random players could just solo healers without a large gear/level discrepancy.

    Why roll a healer when you can't kill anyone and get solo'd by any random guy that jumps at you? The problem only occurs when you have a large amount of healers, otherwise you are just terrible.

    Clerics have break free, other than that they don't have any CC breaks so stun/silence/cc the crap out of them. If your team focuses fire then most of the time the healers can't keep up, especially when they're getting stunned.

    Some teams I feel overpowered as a healer because the enemy are terrible and just attack random targets/do random damage while jumping in and trying to solo a healer without any teammates, other times you feel like you need a buff because you keep getting stunned and repeatedly killed by four or five players without any help from teammates.

    The problem is you, stop trying to get more nerfs when they aren't needed.
    Last edited by Afyael; 04-11-2011 at 12:04 AM.

  10. #10
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    Again this really?

    There was a time (long long ago) where healer got cloth armor had low hp and was basically a glass canon for healing. They were the first target to kill because the amount of healing they do was quite insane.

    Then there was a evolution in healing classes (first seen by me in Aion) where healers no longer had the worst armor class and could reach high HP and could stand fights longer then many other classes. But they also drastically reduced there healing output compared to games before.

    So in rift we have as clerics either the PVE specc which is good for single target with VERY limited group healing or we take PVP specc which gives us okay group healing via hots but makes it very hard to heal any kind of bursts on low hp classes.

    Solution is start playing with a brain and not just randomly attack players. I always see stupid pugs fighting 8 ppl vs 1 tank while a healer sits there with pve specc and just spam heals him. Thats not a bad game design, thats just dumb ppl having no clue about the game ....

  11. #11
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Afyael View Post
    I'm sorry but the game would be completely broken if random players could just solo healers without a large gear/level discrepancy.

    Why roll a healer when you can't kill anyone and get solo'd by any random guy that jumps at you? The problem only occurs when you have a large amount of healers, otherwise you are just terrible.

    Clerics have break free, other than that they don't have any CC breaks so stun/silence/cc the crap out of them. If your team focuses fire then most of the time the healers can't keep up, especially when they're getting stunned.

    Some teams I feel overpowered as a healer because the enemy are terrible and just attack random targets/do random damage while jumping in and trying to solo a healer without any teammates, other times you feel like you need a buff because you keep getting stunned and repeatedly killed by four or five players without any help from teammates.

    The problem is you, stop trying to get more nerfs when they aren't needed.
    So why can you completely roll us? Why is a 1v1 an instant win for a healer? Even with Fell blades you can heal through my burst, after that you're laughing. I've got a 2996 sanction heretic crit, and two 900 dmg bolt of judgement crits, yet the guy was healing everything I did with ease. Why can he do that? Why don't I just re-roll and do that.
    Last edited by Obsession; 04-11-2011 at 12:39 AM.

  12. #12
    Shield of Telara
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    The better self healer wins in 1v1. It's like that in pretty much every game. By all means roll a cleric since there seems to be a lack of healers .

    The point is that right now healers get stunned and silenced so much already that if you weaken their heals they are going to be close to useless in any group encounter.

  13. #13
    Telaran Lorak's Avatar
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    First, nobody cares about 1v1.

    Second, your argument goes both ways because even though healers are designed to heal through mobs hitting for 4k etc, dps are also designed to kill mobs with tens or hundreds of thousands of hp, not 5k.

    Third, heals are not everything. I've had plenty of games where my team had 2-3x more healing and we still lost. It happens.

    Fourth, if you're trying to kill a healer solo purely through dps and not using CC or debuffs, you're doing it wrong. Incoming heal debuffs especially make a huge difference when trying to kill a healer. I think they stack also, as I have had my heals debuffed so far that all my heals were only healing me for 1 hp.

    tl;dr - learn to play.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheKaine View Post
    Again this really?

    There was a time (long long ago) where healer got cloth armor had low hp and was basically a glass canon for healing. They were the first target to kill because the amount of healing they do was quite insane.

    Then there was a evolution in healing classes (first seen by me in Aion) where healers no longer had the worst armor class and could reach high HP and could stand fights longer then many other classes. But they also drastically reduced there healing output compared to games before.

    So in rift we have as clerics either the PVE specc which is good for single target with VERY limited group healing or we take PVP specc which gives us okay group healing via hots but makes it very hard to heal any kind of bursts on low hp classes.

    Solution is start playing with a brain and not just randomly attack players. I always see stupid pugs fighting 8 ppl vs 1 tank while a healer sits there with pve specc and just spam heals him. Thats not a bad game design, thats just dumb ppl having no clue about the game ....
    I've only just starting pvping in this game (level 14), so probably not qualified to even post, but I've found healing to be a tad ridiculous.

    Granted, most people at this level are morons and really have no idea how to win a warfront. Most people try and dps a level 19 tank whilst level 12 healers are sitting back just spamming heal. I've tried to gank a few but it's not even worth it as they just turn to look at me, lol, and then heal themselves.

    I have a lot to learn, but my initial reaction is healing is a little high at the moment.

    Oh and I'm not sure if this is a universal thing, but Guardians SUCK at pvp. Is it always the way?

  15. #15
    Plane Touched Shaynaro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jav View Post
    You are an idiot...Healers are not meant to be gods in PvP. The fact that you think that not one solo player should ever be able to solo a healer show how much of a bad you are.

    The fact that your trying to say PvP healing needs a boost shows how out of touch you are. Whoever has the most HEALING clerics wins period. Even in the case of Back Peddling baddies like yourself who thinks you should be able to tank 2 to 3 players at a time.
    "that not one solo player should ever be able to solo a healer show how much of a bad you are." - So how it works for you ? Half a player should be able to kill a healer? Autoattack? Send in pet and alt+tab to youp..tube ?

    It might work for a different game, but in this one solo killing 1 healer is beyond absurd. Between stealth, charge, ranged spells and insane CC healers would drop instantly.

    Tanking 2 players? It's not even possible if you have even half a brain as a dpser. Kiting them with LOS, Barb slow and instant casts ? Yes, easily doable and more then needed. This should work with 3 randoms by burning cooldown after cooldown for a limited amount of time. And you know what? This is the current situation.

    Healers last as much as their cooldowns and instant casts can provide. You get him to casting one heal and he is soon watching a respawn timer. Try some CC in a while. Had enough moments when i was being attacked by 2 players and CCed to death unable to do anything. No need to make one class down a healer solo.

    Every class in this game is more then capable of shooting 1-2k in pvp on a 20%+ damage reduction cleric. How about playing with another person and actually coordinating your attacks? There are moments in PVP when I feel like a god and moments when i ask myself :" wtf did just happen? and that was not a pyro" . Guess the moments I feel like a god is when I meet people like you!

    PVP healing does not need a boost. It definitely doesn't need a nerf atm. Stop getting your WOTLK S5 attitude around here.
    Last edited by Shaynaro; 04-11-2011 at 03:08 AM.

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