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Thread: Dear PVPers and Potential Trolls (An examination of 10-29 pvp in Black Garden)

  1. #1
    Telaran
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    Default Dear PVPers and Potential Trolls (An examination of 10-29 pvp in Black Garden)

    This is just some data that I took through screen shots of pvp in black fang – the end of game stats message. I have 3 images from my mage in the 10-19 bracket and then 4 of my cleric in the 20-29 bracket. I am not claiming to be an expert in pvp and I would love to have an intelligent discussion about what you may or may not agree with in this post but be aware that it is quite lengthy. I took this from guardian and defiant points of view.

    Terms I use:
    Camp Ground: Refers to the space in between the two bases near the prison.
    Midfield Defense: It’s the people who hang out in the camp ground to distract people from the fang.
    Free-Casting: When a player can cast without taking damage or even being noticed. A freecasting healer or AoE is going to dramatically change an encounter.
    FC/FCK: Fang Carrier/ FCKills


    Quick Summary:
    Obvious General Info:
    1) If you’re dpsing do not just go for max killing blows, max damage, or maximum epeen status. First, in fang of regulos – target the healer first. The FC is going to die. It is unavoidable. Targeting the healer makes him a) stop healing other people to heal himself and b) die. Think in PVP if Healers die you’re as good as wiping the rest of their raid.
    a. Do not mindlessly aoe. If your aoe can target, target the FC and you’re actually pressuring while maxing your stats.
    b. Do not get caught up by midfield defense. That’s why its called midfield defense. More info in 4.
    2) If you happen to be a warrior, rogue, or mage and you don’t think you’re getting healed. Press ~ and see. Chances are, you are. Try to keep an eye on who your healers are – they generally have blue and purple (bards) names. If you see a blue names hp dropping fast try to CC whats beating on them.
    3) If you’re a healer, heal. Heal your tanks. See above for two pve references.
    4) The family camp ground: Ok, we all wanna get to the show, but grow up and group up. Don’t run into 10 enemies solo. You’re going to die fast and be annoyed as you sit in the GY again. Camping generally happens right in front of the prison on a losing team. Very rarely is the FC at that point. You can drop down on the right or left of the camp ground, run through the sides and surprise a FC from behind.
    5) Pick up the fang. Omg. If you see that your people died. Stop dpsing, stop healing, pick up the fang. If you’re not near the fang and if the fang hasn’t been picked up for a few ticks, run to the prison. It will meet you there. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had people next to me avoid the fang. You picking it up and holding it for 10 seconds while the original FC runs back from his or her rez is seriously invaluable.
    6) Don’t punch squirrels. At this level a mage spent 2 seconds to squirrel that creature and likely has to wait 15 seconds to squirrel again. Don’t do it. Squirrel punching is bad. Likely that person was picking on the mage or is the enemies healer. Just don’t punch squirrels ok. Seriously. Seriously.
    7) If you’re a low level, don’t feel ashamed at getting pushed in the dirt by a higher level. Pick a power-up up and jump the FC you will get a kill and a ton of favor. Make sure you get all of your souls so your not a nub who comes to a WF expecting to DPS like they do against immobile mobs. Pay for the second slot and have a heal spec on back up just in case.


    Info for Fang Carriers
    1) Do not run away from the camp grounds. Catching up to you when you run through those little doors is a pain for your team and for healers. The biggest error is, while you may have the fang for 20-40 seconds… you’re generating very few points on the outskirts of the map.
    2) Do not kite a big distance from your healers. Healing has a range in meters, just like other spellcasting. Time he or she spends running after you is time he or she can’t spend healing you.
    3) Abusing LOS to keep enemy damage at a minimum: The tree is a great place to los, as we’ve seen in PVP videos and people naturally do. While standing on the black is riskier than hiding behind the trees, it is actually slightly easier to use LOS there. Second advantage? You gain more points on the black. This is very important: when you’re losing your enemy by kiting the trees and the fang obstacles you’re also LOSing your healer. Third Advantage? You’re not being useless. You can still dps or heal with the fang. Hell, if you get a KB while holding the fang you get an achievement.

    Info for DPS:
    1) Do not allow free casting.
    2) Target healers.
    3) Distract, distract, distract.

    Info for healers:
    1) If you can stand on a ledge and heal the fc AND YOUR TEAM you’re open game for rangers and marksmen but melee can’t get to you. A healer that can freecast is going to win a game pretty much by his or her self.
    2) If you’re using a lot of instants move while you cast them. They’re instants, abuse that fact. I have a “run” macro with heals and effects that I can do while running.
    3) You can time your cast-based heals to proc right after the fang ticks its damage. It is pretty reliable at about 4 seconds.

    Assaulting the Fang Carrier:
    1) I can’t tell you how many times I’ve dropped a fc. It is simple. The fang does most of the work for you. On my cleric I throw up a dot and then hit them with an instant right after the damage spikes. They’ll die.
    2) I said it already, but it warrents mentioning again, avoid the campground.
    3) For ranged: Ok by avoiding the camp ground you can actually climb up their hill and attack them from behind, on the hill. They can’t los you without exposing themselves to the rest of your team. However, they can kite to the other tree and you’re sol behind enemy lines.
    4) If he seems to be getting a lot of heals, switch targets. Don’t mindlessly mash your rotation when a competent healer is undoing your work. I promise, in this game, you’re not half as mana efficient as them.


    This first shot is my mage, Torn as a stormcaller.
    http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/5...4kb1stndam.jpg
    You can see that he is level 14. I topped dps with 1 fck, 4 killing blows. We still lost. It happened a few times as I leveled up and it took me till level 18 to decide to PVP as a Chloromancer because no one would roll heals for defiant on my server. As you can see I was being an ahole to this guy saying our team sucked. I took it upon myself, as one with decent stats in the battle, to put him in his place. He said something along the lines of “this is just like wow, my team always loses.” Ok, if you constantly lose in pvp that really is your fault. You might get stuck in the same pug with no healers (and we can all admit games are won or lost based on who has a) better healers and b) better focus fire on enemy healers. Slowing their melee with a well placed arctic blast inflates your stats but also has functionality. If you control the fang – a stormcaller on midfield is scary distracting. Spamming forked lighting gets those stats you crave, draws pets, and makes an entire team target YOU instead of a fc. But, on this game I was mostly offense. I killed Fred twice. a) when he was carrying the fang once and b) when he was healing the other fc once. Managed to squirrel him a few times but slowed his healing insignificantly.

    Ok, to keep the trolls at bay a little “Well you can always AoE with stormcaller to the top of the charts that doesn’t mean you’re doing anything for the good of the team. Yes, I agree that is bad pvp. But half-mindless AoE is very functional. I listed midfield defense, but there is another defensive tactic. Dropping AoE on a dropped fang is much more important than you realize (keeps multiple enemies from picking it up). I agree that unless you can pressure a team with your AoE then it isn’t really necessary. But when a healer stands next to the fc with a defender arctic blast, forked lightning till I’m targeted and then spamming lightning field on the run generates a massive amount of damage. When a determined melee rogue or warrior wants to kill me, I resort to bad pvp. I am forced to run, usually with “ride the wind” and I definitely use Cloudburst a lot at this level (and at 18 Ice shear) and I know they’re pretty much worthless spells against mobs but they’re spammable on the move, which allows dps while kiting with “ride the wind”. A *lot* of my dps comes from this because casters, in this game, can’t afford to let a melee bang on them even for a single cast.


    http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/8...2ndnheal3d.jpg

    Ok you can see by my interface I am no longer a level 14 DPSing stormcaller. I said I respected chloro for pvp to see its effect. Again, we lost but the results are interesting. This game is relatively close; we lost. You can see that I have 3 fang grabs for 59 seconds and my guildmate has 4 for 1:06. We simply tried to pull it away from their trees and get it close to the center - but only one other person on our team managed a fang pick up – and that was immediately after they soloed the fc anyway. So mad respect. I switch back to my stormcaller when we have enough healers, but at this point I am the only defiant healer in the fang. So I must go chloro. To make matters worse, the guardians have 1 decent healer and two average ones; one of those average healers was mvp with the fang 4 carries with my same time (59 seconds). I wanna give a shout out to Temporis, Tempina, and Timpora@todrin for really bringing their A game to this match. I don’t know them in-game but I was glad to have some people who know how to hurt.

    I think this just goes to show you that with deficient heals, but present heals, strategy has a marginal chance overcome. We simply dropped the ball… or the fang, on this one. The fifth point on my list up there is pick up the fang. Why? Because if anyone had picked the fang from our corpses the game would have been even closer, to the point that a team with deficient heals manages to take a win. So far, I’ve yet to see it; but I was so hopeful this would be that match that I recorded the fail attempt.

    http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/91/to...ndnheals5d.jpg
    I posted this out of hilarity. You can see the that the Damage isn’t ridiculously high, I’m not going to win any awards, but it the damage significant – due to the kbs gained from it. I actually would have taken top heals had I not died twice more than the guardian healer. But I was yelling at neodragon in the last few seconds, you can see it there with the wonderful “dps DOESN’T MATTER” quote. Because I got the same amount of FC kills as him with marginal dps due to dots and well placed ruins/channels. Again, props to my team for coming out and hitting hard. I blame myself for the loss – I don’t really have the gear (even though I’m 19) to pvp properly. Its basically the same eq I had at 14, some crafted, and from 1 IT run because I leveled almost solely from pvp. I feel like I let my team down with my heals. But I am used to pvp healing on my cleric. Which is phenomenally more simple and effective than this chloro healing. I simply cannot keep a fc topped off in chloro spec (where a cleric easily can) – even with synthesis on them (and yes, synthesis is on them.)



    ---

    The following notes and data is from PVP on Rudevil my Cleric@wolfsbane. Bracket 20-29 My spec is currently Purifier 29/Sent 9/Warden 0 | at 22 it would be whatever the 22 equivalent of those numbers are.

    http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/2...4thnheal2d.jpg
    Ok, earlier I said that DPS doesn’t matter. This is an exaduation .Obvious dps does a lot – but remember the fang does your dpsing for you. I score two FCKs, at 22, with only 1100 damage dealt. I am 4th in the healing. 3rd for my team. My heals out is 22k my heals in are 8k. Unless you’re carrying the fang, as a healer, you hope you don’t have a high amount of damage received or heals received. You want to spend as much time “free-casting” as possible.

    http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/867...4thnheal4d.jpg
    You can see I follow my own rules and pick up the fang if I can. I am forth in healing, second for the team. I’d like to pretend that my healing is a few thousand higher due to constant mitigation from shielding. What is significant about this SS is it shows me, a healer, with 2 fang carries for 1:17 at level 22. We can assume most of my healing done was to myself; heals received should really never be that close to heals outgoing, it doesn’t really look good – but with a fang carry it is understandable. My strategy: I stood in the middle of the pitch. I stayed on the black as long as I could when the tics got too scary for me, I ran behind our lines. So, after about a minute. I also had four deaths. I am proud of the stats on this because at level 22 I am healing “hard” enough, single target, to surpass my bardic friends aoe hots.

    http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/5...fck2ndnhea.jpg
    Ok, you can see that we lost this match. I am 28. I had a FCK using my principles I discussed (my damage done is only 400 in this kill), took second in healing despite leading the team in deaths, and held the fang twice for 1:55 on the pitch. I wish we got extra favor for things like smash and grab or star quarterback in each instance of the warfront because I tend to get a few smash and grabs on an average night. The guy who took third in healing, dregolas@tearfall, has intense stats. Look, he also had significant dps and 6 kbs. But none of them are FCK and he never grabs the fang. Not sure what spec he is to get healing and damage like that, I assume maybe cleric with deep justicar? If you can’t tell, I am definitely am proud of this match even though we lost.

    http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/8...stnhealing.jpg
    First in healing, 2 carries at 1:34 my bags were open when I took this SS so I can’t remember if we won, but I am pretty sure we did. You can see down the list Fionnri. I talked a little smack on him in the chat window. You can see my message, it says please contribute. That was a little harse because his DPS wasn’t bad. But it would have been better with him not hiding behind the trees and we would have gotten more points with him on the pitch. Notice he holds the fang in one carry as long as I do in two. Likely because I am always on the pitch, front line, healing my teammates and myself as much as possible.

  2. #2
    Telaran
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    Here are some questions that I thought about answering:
    “How exactly do you heal?” and “Why do you pvp heal with Purifier/Sent/Warden?”
    First off, this game is about customization and I found a combination that just fits my play style – I am sure there is a much “better” streamlined/accepted healbot set-up but this spec fits me. It is complex enough that it becomes interesting and simple enough that I can do it while watching multiple life bars. Latent Blaze every time the cool down is up. I chose sentinel as my second for Life’s Vengeance and Healing Breath. Vengeance is what I use to take down fang carriers. It hits hard, is instant, but has a long cool down. It mixed well with Banish (efficient instant cast dot) as I can cast these while running towards the FC. Healing Breath is a very powerful instant speed heal with a long cool down. I have it on the same macro as Shield/Ward of the ancestors (Bubbles) and Healing Flare (Inefficient instant heal, but can be spammed while running). Every time an enemy has to punch through an extra couple hundred damage I consider that a free heal. The Ward of the ancestors is macrod to my big heal – which is restorative flame. Many times in pvp 3 seconds is too long, so I also have the 1.5 second cast from purifier and 2 second cast from sentinel on my bar. You’ll see the #1 ability is the instant hot from warden which I throw around like candy with caregivers blessing. Again, any time they have to punch through a couple hundred extra health is time I spend healing. I use searing transition as a sort of “oh ****” when Healing Breath is on CD and Flares aren’t pushing me through the burst.

    If you’re wondering, I am putting points the really bad talent that creates shields when you use restorative flame. It may seem insignificant to you, but if I am chain-casting restorative flame its proccing enflamed rejuvenation and that 70 or so shield that I keep putting up is floating my target through the extra second I need to get through the next big heal. And they just get bigger and crit harder and harder as the fights go on as I am popping firey blessing and flashover when things get nuts.



    “As a healer what are you most afraid of seeing on the battlefield?”
    Other than another healer? You mean what ****s me up the most? We’ll start with clerics. When I see there are a bunch of healers on my team, in codex or fang, I generally switch to inquisitor. Because that is what I am most afraid of from the clerics. I tried out cabalist for a while but its just not really as explosive as Stormcaller (and I had pvped extensively at the lower bracket with stormcaller, so that may have jaded me). The cabalist gives a lot of utility, snares, yanks, etc, but the inquisitor has much more nastiness. When they put sanction heretic, vex, and spiritual deficiency on a FC – I have to cleanse these off. It takes time to cleanse these – time away from healing. Their purge rips off my HoTs, Shields, and my latent blaze.

    “What about mages? Do they scare you?”
    AT this level pyro isn’t actually all that scary but you can’t let them freecast on you. You have to los them just like Inquisitor. They can hit you pretty hard but what is most scary is getting a dom in your face. They can cc you in so many ways that they can completely neutralize you. A squirrel takes a long time to break, then they have something that they can put on you – with a 60% chance to silence you if you heal. They can take your mana. They’re a *****. Its important to watch yourself in pvp when a dom is in play. They dramatically change the way you play. Stormcallers can also be overwhelming at times when they can freecast because I am single target healing specced, very deep. I just try to pass along healing spray as much as I can. Archons have also been a rare but interesting thing to go up against. They can just muck things up and generally dial up the level of fun.

    “What about rogues? People tell me rogues suck harder than mages used to.”
    Good mages don’t suck it’s a very complex class and people are still learning it. I hate seeing well geared rangers and marksmen. A good marksmen can cut me down before I realize I’m in it deep. A good ranger can out dps my heals when I try to kite away. Sabs are still nasty, but become manageable if I notice one in the field. I just drag my combat log out and eye it, waiting for charges. When I see four, I simply LoS and cleanse or pop up my bubble. The nerfs aren’t as noticeable at this level – they still hit you for as much as your +200 you HP when they get lucky. But assassins (and nbs) actually ruin my day. They can sap me while I’m healing. Assassins more so than NB because an assassin can sap me, stun me… while my team dies and I can’t do much about it. Then if I jump down to give up the high ground I am more likely to get focused. I cannot heal through their bust, so I have to hope they don’t crit and home healing breath is up.

    More interestingly, I pvped in the 40-49 bracket as a bard and I find them the scariest. When I was a bard I could pop (cadence, I think?) Do massive aoe using fury and make sure everyone near me was healed to max before the buff wore off. I haven’t encountered any bards that were as game changing as when 2 or 3 existed in the wfs at that level.

    “Warriors?”
    All of them? I dunno, people who waste money on a VK spec slot can neutralize one or two healers easily. Easily. Champions, even at this level, can take you down pretty quickly if they get ahold of you. They’re the predominate why I have a “run” macro. Paragons drop me pretty fast, too. Warlords muck things up (not as badly as dominators, but its still significant to mention.)

    “Where do you stand when you heal Fang?”
    I stand on top of my fang carrier. If they kite to the trees then (if I am dead) I heal from the ledge. I heal from the walls, which I learned from PVPing on my mage. Range is good to the black pitch and if you’re talking to your heal-ee then he’ll stay close enough to get healed. You don’t have los issues from that location.

    “Do you talk trash to your own team?”
    I troll trolls. People who don’t understand “Get the fang carrier” isn’t a comprehensive strategy. And people who are like “I AM TOP DPS WON’T YOU GUYS DO ANYTHING?” Expecially when they have 0 fcks or pick ups.

    “What do you think about the powerups in fang?”
    They take about a minute to pick up and use. I say use em if you’ve had a couple of “almost!” but don’t pick them up until the fight is underway. Just a suggestion.

    “What about The Codex at codex?”
    This isn’t about codex but I thought I’d mention it because I see some healers fail. Four main points… I start off on top of the rocks we run up on. Pretty standard. I heal down. This location works when attacking or defending. If a ranger, pyro, or marksmen gives me trouble then I los them by standing UNDER their rock outcropping. If I feel like I need to be a distraction, I stand on the fang. When attacking if I get targeted too much on the rocks, I heal from the side melee runs up from next to the big statue looking thing. I can break the los of their casters on the rock by backing up and if I pull the melee away from the fang to chase me, then my team can ninja cap while I kyte heal myself.


    “Anything Else?”
    I suggest following Taugrim’s Blog. He has several pvp warrior videos for Rift. From a healers perspective you see the best way that a warrior can come at you, and he does a really good job of teaching casters to circle against strafing. Many people don’t realize what is going on when a warrior is running around them beating the **** out of them. He has his own heal from the paladin tree, and I suggest that for many people who want to be successful in pvp. It is on a 10 minute cooldown which basically means once every warfront but it can mean the difference between taking the fang and not. Or holding it for a few extra ticks. It is very significant. Following his blog will teach you a ton about mechanics… I’ve been following it since wow to learn how to deal with paladins.


    I just realized I didn’t upload any wins on my mage. I swear I’ve been involved in winning teams lol, I am not going to upload an ss’s because they’d be redundant ;)

  3. #3
    Telaran
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    Did you gather any of that data that suggests Warfronts suck as end-game PvP?

  4. #4
    Telaran
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    Oh that is obvious. But they're fun as of now. I wrote this to help explain to people why they lose. A choloromancer (the only healer last night for 7 straight fangs) cannot main heal against a group with a cleric. But I won a few, when the guardians had zero clerics and my heals were the only thing that mattered. I mean it is more fun than a mindless mob grind. At least these mobs fight back for reals. I dunno about port scion but whitefall sucks. Fang and Codex are the two maps I really enjoy. (I've never played port scion because my highest toon is 46.)
    Last edited by Paramnesia; 04-02-2011 at 12:07 PM.

  5. #5
    Telaran
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    http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/967...stnhealing.jpg
    I needed to upload a Black Garden victory in the 19 bracket and this one Dinged me to 20 so it seemed the most appropriate. Just highlighting that if either me or danika were in dps modes we would have lost. This makes me look bad because I barely outscored her healing (hers was all single target because she is a Purifier like my other character rudevil.) I don’t know if she popped shields or not; if she did her *theoretical* score would be much higher. I had 5 deaths, she had 4. The AoE healing of this class (chloromancer) definitely does well in BGs because everyone is taking a little damage and you can actually pass out SYNTHESIS to whoever is being focused which gives them much greater healing tics. The weakness is I can’t heal the fc if he isn’t actively engaged in fighting because healing is damage based and the cooldowns of flourish and bloom are >= 6 seconds while the fang tics at ~3 or 4

    http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/9...stnhealing.jpg
    Just a random ss from later that night. Our group had won a codex and then lost two close games so I decided to do Black Garden for a while. Both of my KBs were while I had the flag I really uploaded this because I wanted to show that I had bound my transmogrify to the middle mouse key – just for a little extra speed. It definitely improved my game significantly and after I am done posting this I am going to make it a macro to do it on mouse over. Any mage combination that has any points in dom *NEEDS* To drop transmogrify in combat. I attempted to trans sciona whenever I saw her. By periodically looking at ~ you can figure out who the enemy healers are.

    http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/6278/killtorn.jpg
    Again I know this thread isn’t about codex but it made me laugh. Read the chat. A Guardian /say “kill Torn” instead of /wf, /raid, or /party

    Notes: Virchow was a bard. I kept synthesis on him so he was pretty much invincible while I was healing. With two AoE healers (me and him) the codex was just glowing green with our heals. The better part was that we were both doing marginal dps, too. I was trying to keep cindra squirreled and it was here that I realized I needed it bound to my mouse. Right now my second is archon but I think I am going to respect Chloro/Dom to eliminate the cooldown on trans and give me a few more utility spells. I kept him floating with blooms and the entire group benefited from flourishes pretty much whenever the cooldown was up (and the timing was right).
    Last edited by Paramnesia; 04-03-2011 at 07:03 PM.

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