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Thread: Warriors and their role

  1. #1
    Prophet of Telara
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    Default Warriors and their role

    DISCLAIMER: I don't know how things are intended to work in RIFT. I gave up on trying to make sense out of Trion's balance changes. I am just expressing my thoughts on how I think things supposed to work in general.



    So what roles a warrior could fulfill?

    Defensive tank
    This is a tank role that protects squshies from MDPS.
    Typical tools:
    Knockback
    Root
    Disarm
    Taunt
    Party buffs
    Guard

    How does it work in RIFT? Simply put it doesn't.

    None of the tank trees have a single KB skill. Oddly enough there is one in Champion tree, which Champions don't really need other than exploiting KB-Bull rush combo. Even that is pathetically weak. Most of the time because MDPS is dancing around their target and due to server latency you'll end up KBing them just to the other side of the target.

    Taunts might as well not exist. 3 second duration on 1 minute recharge is not even remotely useful.

    We have some roots and disarms, but nothing that would say: No, you deal with me now! Stand Off is a good skill, but suffers from the same issue as all taunts - duration/cd ratio is way off.

    Party buffs are alright, though for a deep specced Warlord they could've been better. Bard can spam better stuff without 5 minute lock out timers.

    Guard is not bad, especially with upgrades.

    Overall defensive tank was pretty much not implemented in RIFT at all.


    Offensive tank
    Offensive tank is one that does pretty much the same job, but deep in enemy midline.
    Typical tools:
    Interrupts
    Silence
    Pull
    Snares
    e-denial
    Absurd survivability

    That would be our good old VK... pre-1.1
    Their role was to disrupt mages. Shutdown healers. Draw fire. Hold them in place for AoE to kill them. Unfortunately Trion decided that was too good and nerfed them into oblivion. Where as real issue was that scrubs just couldn't grasp the concept of dealing with VK, which isn't hard at all assuming you bring balanced team. VKs are pretty vulnerable to MDPS and not immune to CC either. But someone said: hey, it is too much to expect people to use team work, so mana classes should be able to just ignore their direct counter regardless.

    Anyway, the point is that this is how Offensive tank supposed to work: Shutdown mid/back line. Draw fire.
    They used to perform that role reasonably well. Now a single VK will take like 20 seconds to drain just one mage/cleric. I label that useless. Why would anyone waste time attacking that guy until his team is dead?



    MDPS
    Lets establish a basic axiom here: MDPS is about burst damage (as opposed to sustained DPS). Sustained DPS simply does not work in melee. Never has and never will (unless you have absurd amount of it, which would be OP). Sustained DPS is RDPS job.

    I look at warriors pre-1.1 and I see exactly what MDPS should be: a persistent threat of being stomped in 3-5 gcds. Powerful as they were, they are also very fragile. Warrior MDPS has very limited tools to deal with CC and heavily relies on pocket healer to keep them cleansed and alive. Their only defense is their offense: stun lock, burst damage and aoe fear.

    Warriors were fulfilling their role of MDPS. Every scrub complained that it was OP, because nobody bothered to counter them. And warrior is dead easy to counter. Sheer amount of CC thrown around in this game is for the purpose of countering MDPS. Thats how MDPS works: high risk, high reward. Deal with them or die. But clueless scrubs cried anyway because concept of side-speccing into support role for self defense (or simply running with premade) is way too much for them.
    If you as a mage, cleric or ranged rouge allow MDPS to beat on you for 3-5 seconds - you are supposed to die horribly. The tools are given to prevent that, but scrubs would rather spec 51 into damage tree and cry on forums about how they lose to MDPS in melee.

    The whole "nerf warriors" whine was based on 1v1 (even though experienced in context of a WF). Mages cried that they couldn't beat MDPS in melee, which is absurd to begin with. This game has **** ton of tool to keep melee away, but scrubs just wanted an easy button, so they didn't have to move from their uber ground. Sure one can spec full damage and no support, but then they are expected to rely on team work to protect them from their intended counter.

    Needless to say Warrior is dead as MDPS as well. Their damage was cut in half by armor penetration fix and cloth armor increase.
    I tried to beat on a guildie cleric yesterday. If I was lucky (bunch stuff procced) I was able to get through half of his HP before he'd outheal all of my efforts in single cast even though I still pull 1000-1200 burst DPS in first 2 seconds.
    I label this broken.


    Conclusion
    Warriors are broken. Neither of their specs fulfill their supposed combat roles. Trion needs stop balancing classes against each other and try to match specific trees against their combat roles.

    Does any given champion/paragon/riftblade combo fulfill MDPS role?
    High burst single target damage. Low survivability. Heavily reliant on cleanse.
    Yes? Balanced.
    No? Broken.

    Does paladin/warlord work as a defensive tank?
    Able to shutdown MDPS easily. Solid party buffs.
    Yes? Balanced.
    No? Broken.

    Does void knight/reaver work as an offensive tank?
    Able to shutdown RDPS/healers easily. Solid survivability.
    Yes? Balanced.
    No? Broken.


    Stop trying to match classes vs each other, except where they fulfill same combat role (i.e. champion versus melee rouge is a fair comparison to explore). Define combat roles. Outline their main strength and weaknesses (preferably in public post to avoid more of the nerf-rock-paper-is-fine QQ). Fit soul tree combos into those roles.... DONE.
    -- Trollhammer@Molinar

  2. #2
    Rift Disciple Aventh's Avatar
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    I couldn't have said it better. Champions have very poor survivability which they sacrificed for their awesome damage. Now that damage is laughable, its down right impossible to get into melee range if bull rush is on cool down due to the ******ed amount of CC that you mentioned. To pull out even decent damage SLI must be up at all times which wastes 3 combo points and a global cool down.

    Void Knights are the only warrior able to dispel LOLOLIWIN Ground of Strength. However they are very poor for the reasons that the OP listed above. Taunts in this game don't work on players so that's pointless as well.
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  3. #3
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    The whole nerf champ whine was based on the massive control with the massive damage.

    They still have that control, and they still do well because of it, because the control itself, is still a little too strong for a champ to have regardless.

    The melee should not be able to disable and whack someone dead in it.

    It may seem to you like it was based on 1v1 because we would say one melee can beat a cleric.

    Yea that sounds like one vs one, put that in a team perspective and it gets 5 times worse when there is 5 champs on that one cleric.
    Last edited by Dominmatric; 04-02-2011 at 10:42 AM.
    TL;DR
    Switching to a different profession is no different than starting a new role at 50, Easily learned. Might as well start at Rank 1 PvP on PvP servers.


    Also, the tab targeting needs to be fixed with two things.
    1.) It has no real selected cycle through the enemies in los, it goes randomly through them, it also prioritizes pets.
    2.)It will sometimes tab through, say, 2 pets 6 times (meaning three rotations for two pets) while enemies that are players are in los, it will do this for player targets too (targeting is random with no kind of tab rythm/cycle/order to go through almost full teams of enemies in los). Give players numbers before their names depending on where they are located at in their raid, and let all people know and see these numbers, and tab cycles through those numbers in order to all enemies in range. Then pets if no players are in range.
    3.)I also think minor obstructions that shouldn't, do play a role in who you can tab target, which adds up with the previous problems making it become complicated to target at times.
    http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...ght=imageshack

    Thank you for pretty much fixing the nearest target button, it's noticeable.

  4. #4
    Ascendant Jeffreys's Avatar
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    Poster is wear high boots and carrying a shovel. And look at the nice steaming pile.

  5. #5
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dominmatric View Post
    The whole nerf champ whine was based on the massive control with the massive damage.

    They still have that control, and they still do well because of it, because the control itself, is still a little too strong for a champ to have regardless.

    The melee should not be able to disable and whack someone dead in it.

    It may seem to you like it was based on 1v1 because we would say one melee can beat a cleric.

    Yea that sounds like one vs one, put that in a team perspective and it gets 5 times worse when there is 5 champs on that one cleric.
    Says the guy who QQed that his CC spec didn't do enough damage, and posted video of him being killed by 3 rouges and 2 warriors to prove warriors are OP.
    -- Trollhammer@Molinar

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by liho1eye View Post
    Says the guy who QQed that his CC spec didn't do enough damage, and posted video of him being killed by 3 rouges and 2 warriors to prove warriors are OP.
    Says the guy who can't even understand why that post was made. comprehension, do you have it?

    The video was just showing the control (not damage on wars, not dom damage) that wars have.

    I got stun+ rooted back to back with three melee on me, because melee have the control.

    If dom had all the control, that would not have happened.

    And the melee would need teamwork from their dom to snare their targets.

    Bad players like you just want your one button macro to carry you through the game, so you don't like the 1.1 patch.

    I don't even use macros.

    Warriors should not have that amount of control period.

    There is a reason dom doesn't have damage, and that is because he has control, warriors should be the opposite (High damage, no control) and that was the reason for the thread. Hope that will make you understand it since you don't seem to be getting it yet.
    Last edited by Dominmatric; 04-02-2011 at 11:20 AM.
    TL;DR
    Switching to a different profession is no different than starting a new role at 50, Easily learned. Might as well start at Rank 1 PvP on PvP servers.


    Also, the tab targeting needs to be fixed with two things.
    1.) It has no real selected cycle through the enemies in los, it goes randomly through them, it also prioritizes pets.
    2.)It will sometimes tab through, say, 2 pets 6 times (meaning three rotations for two pets) while enemies that are players are in los, it will do this for player targets too (targeting is random with no kind of tab rythm/cycle/order to go through almost full teams of enemies in los). Give players numbers before their names depending on where they are located at in their raid, and let all people know and see these numbers, and tab cycles through those numbers in order to all enemies in range. Then pets if no players are in range.
    3.)I also think minor obstructions that shouldn't, do play a role in who you can tab target, which adds up with the previous problems making it become complicated to target at times.
    http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...ght=imageshack

    Thank you for pretty much fixing the nearest target button, it's noticeable.

  7. #7
    Prophet of Telara Sensational's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aventh View Post
    I couldn't have said it better. Champions have very poor survivability which they sacrificed for their awesome damage. Now that damage is laughable, its down right impossible to get into melee range if bull rush is on cool down due to the ******ed amount of CC that you mentioned. To pull out even decent damage SLI must be up at all times which wastes 3 combo points and a global cool down.
    Damage is fine now actually, and was a bit OP before. Bad warriors will be bad. Also if you had a clue you'd know that SLI is off GCD now.

    http://SVentures.guildpower.com

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensational View Post
    Damage is fine now actually.
    Far from laughable.

    laughable to these guys means they can't two hit someone, ridiculous.
    Last edited by Dominmatric; 04-02-2011 at 11:23 AM.
    TL;DR
    Switching to a different profession is no different than starting a new role at 50, Easily learned. Might as well start at Rank 1 PvP on PvP servers.


    Also, the tab targeting needs to be fixed with two things.
    1.) It has no real selected cycle through the enemies in los, it goes randomly through them, it also prioritizes pets.
    2.)It will sometimes tab through, say, 2 pets 6 times (meaning three rotations for two pets) while enemies that are players are in los, it will do this for player targets too (targeting is random with no kind of tab rythm/cycle/order to go through almost full teams of enemies in los). Give players numbers before their names depending on where they are located at in their raid, and let all people know and see these numbers, and tab cycles through those numbers in order to all enemies in range. Then pets if no players are in range.
    3.)I also think minor obstructions that shouldn't, do play a role in who you can tab target, which adds up with the previous problems making it become complicated to target at times.
    http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...ght=imageshack

    Thank you for pretty much fixing the nearest target button, it's noticeable.

  9. #9
    Ascendant Xvvt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dominmatric View Post

    Yea that sounds like one vs one, put that in a team perspective and it gets 5 times worse when there is 5 champs on that one cleric.
    lolwut? You expect to live when being attacked by 5 champs? Hell 5 of any class should kill a cleric by himself quickly.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xvvt View Post
    lolwut? You expect to live when being attacked by 5 champs? Hell 5 of any class should kill a cleric by himself quickly.
    Yea they should, one shouldn't and that was the problem with having 5 because one could do it solo.

    You know exactly what I was saying.

    One champ can kill a cleric solo without a problem, stun, two hit, now lets add four more of those in there and call it balanced. <<-- This is what you are trying to say.
    Last edited by Dominmatric; 04-02-2011 at 11:27 AM.
    TL;DR
    Switching to a different profession is no different than starting a new role at 50, Easily learned. Might as well start at Rank 1 PvP on PvP servers.


    Also, the tab targeting needs to be fixed with two things.
    1.) It has no real selected cycle through the enemies in los, it goes randomly through them, it also prioritizes pets.
    2.)It will sometimes tab through, say, 2 pets 6 times (meaning three rotations for two pets) while enemies that are players are in los, it will do this for player targets too (targeting is random with no kind of tab rythm/cycle/order to go through almost full teams of enemies in los). Give players numbers before their names depending on where they are located at in their raid, and let all people know and see these numbers, and tab cycles through those numbers in order to all enemies in range. Then pets if no players are in range.
    3.)I also think minor obstructions that shouldn't, do play a role in who you can tab target, which adds up with the previous problems making it become complicated to target at times.
    http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...ght=imageshack

    Thank you for pretty much fixing the nearest target button, it's noticeable.

  11. #11
    Ascendant Xvvt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dominmatric View Post
    Yea they should, one shouldn't and that was the problem with having 5 because one could do it solo.

    You know exactly what I was saying.

    One champ can kill a cleric solo without a problem, stun, two hit, now lets add four more of those in there and call it balanced. <<-- This is what you are trying to say.
    lolwut? One champ is is killing you with two hits? I know "l2p" is overused, but if this is the case you really need to take it to heart.

    I've fought a lot of clerics and I am geared fairly well. I have never 2 shot any clerics, even the worst ones I have fought. You really need to look at your playstyle.

    Seriously, Trion shouldn't be balancing classes based on skill level of people such as yourself.
    Last edited by Xvvt; 04-02-2011 at 11:33 AM.

  12. #12
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    Alright, alright, here's another one.

    1 Chloro can't kill a cleric. 5 Chloros can. Chloros are far from op.

    However 1 champ could killa cleric by himself. 5 of them is more than overkill because a single one is overkill by himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xvvt View Post
    lolwut? One champ is is killing you with two hits? I know "l2p" is overused, but if this is the case you really need to take it to heart.

    I've fought a lot of clerics and I am geared fairly well. I have never 2 shot any clerics, even the worst ones I have fought. You really need to look at your playstyle.
    Ok, well I never played a cleric, I've heard them complain, and their complaints were the same as mine on chloro, how many chloros have you had last to you as a champ, not a single damn one.
    Last edited by Dominmatric; 04-02-2011 at 11:33 AM.
    TL;DR
    Switching to a different profession is no different than starting a new role at 50, Easily learned. Might as well start at Rank 1 PvP on PvP servers.


    Also, the tab targeting needs to be fixed with two things.
    1.) It has no real selected cycle through the enemies in los, it goes randomly through them, it also prioritizes pets.
    2.)It will sometimes tab through, say, 2 pets 6 times (meaning three rotations for two pets) while enemies that are players are in los, it will do this for player targets too (targeting is random with no kind of tab rythm/cycle/order to go through almost full teams of enemies in los). Give players numbers before their names depending on where they are located at in their raid, and let all people know and see these numbers, and tab cycles through those numbers in order to all enemies in range. Then pets if no players are in range.
    3.)I also think minor obstructions that shouldn't, do play a role in who you can tab target, which adds up with the previous problems making it become complicated to target at times.
    http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...ght=imageshack

    Thank you for pretty much fixing the nearest target button, it's noticeable.

  13. #13
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xvvt View Post
    lolwut? One champ is is killing you with two hits? I know "l2p" is overused, but if this is the case you really need to take it to heart.

    I've fought a lot of clerics and I am geared fairly well. I have never 2 shot any clerics, even the worst ones I have fought. You really need to look at your playstyle.

    Seriously, Trion shouldn't be balancing classes based on skill level of people such as yourself.
    You arguing with an idiot... just saying.
    -- Trollhammer@Molinar

  14. #14
    Rift Disciple Aventh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensational View Post
    Damage is fine now actually, and was a bit OP before. Bad warriors will be bad. Also if you had a clue you'd know that SLI is off GCD now.
    SLI is off GCD but its animation does not allow you to attack right after essentially using up time.
    Dreadnaught - Lvl. 50 - T2 Warrior Tank
    Ashmaker - Rogue - Lvl. 50
    Ultimate - Mage - Lvl. 50 - PvP Pyro
    < Paradox >

    DUKE [x] | INFILTRATOR [x] | ORACLE [x] | HYLAS [x] | GREENSCALE [ ]

  15. #15
    Telaran
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    Warrior was over nerfed, granted the armor bug was not intentional but actually it may mean that armor on other classes was too high to begin with since warriors for the most part depend on physical dmg.

    As it stands now our best pvp specs make us the least viable and least threat to the other team, our damage even with wounds is easily healable unless your rank6.

    i think warriors got over nerfed, and mages are now OP. should be some kind of balance with how classes interact with each other.

    For instance i can tank or do damage but i can't heal, every class in this game can tank and heal and dps but warriors, so for instance on a raid im either tanking or dpsing, or dpsing waiting to tank. Bosses in this game for what ever reason are designed to counter melee, and force melee to be less viable to a group.

    this means as a warrior i gotta do not only more dmg then other classes because now my only role is dps and im going to have horrible uptime, but they have to do more burst dmg so they can do their dmg fast get in and get out.

    as it stands now warriors really have no viable roll in pvp with no real burst anymore and no viable roll in pve outside of tanking.

    in this game warriors kinda hve to be kings of dmg, or the class is broken.

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