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Thread: PvP in an MMO? Really?

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    Shadowlander Moog2010's Avatar
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    Default PvP in an MMO? Really?

    This is just my opinion (so don't get all pissy about it) and I know that they'll be A LOT who disagree, but:

    Why would you buy an MMO if your main interest is PvP?

    We have these massive games with giant areas to explore, thousands of quests, items, mobs &c and all most people seem to be bothered about (at least on the forums) is the PvP balance between classes for Black Garden.

    I've always viewed the PvP aspect of these games as a (very) minor aspect. Don't get me wrong, I like a quick run-out on the Warfront from time-to-time but if that's your main reason for buying an MMO, wouldn't you be better buying a FPS? or maybe EVE online?

    I've only ever really seen two types of PvP in MMos:

    a) Warzone/front : it's basically a mess of people running in tight circles around each other or pogo-jumping; and don't forget the continual stream of people running from graveyard to action area. The Black Garden is a particularly bad example of this: get the Fang, take it behind that tree in the corner and if you've got more level 19s/Healers than your opponents, you'll probably win. You can predict who's gonna win each battle before it even starts just by looking at the teams.

    b) Gank! How many times have you actually haid a decent/fair scrap with an enemy out in the main world?

    I guess my only suggestion for improving PvP would be to introduce a duel-system for groups; that way you could team up with guildies and have a 5v5 duel. Maybe that'd be better? I'm not that bothered either way!

    I (personally) think that Trion are doing a great job and Rift looks like it might end-up being as good as my existing favourite which was EQ2. Levelling is much more fun in Rift and non-laborious; the actual 'Rift' aspect is a great addition, graphics are great, the 'Soul' system makes for a much more varied experience, too.

    Crafting is a bit weak and there never seems to be much on the auction-house but I guess this'll get better over time. They're my only two real gripes so far...

    But, if you look at the forums, it just seems to be awash with people who are upset because a certain class hasn't been nerfed yet and they can't beat a team of 10 Champs in Black Garden...

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    Champion Siveon's Avatar
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    I like your suggestion of the group duels!
    About pvp topic, i pvp because i prefer the challenge of fighting a human rather then a dumb AI or scripted event simply because its more engaging.
    PvE for me is rather boring has you only need the correct gear and do a simple rotation or have a macro do it for you, meanwhile in pvp even though gear is also important the decisions players make are the true deal that separates the good from the bad players.
    * LAG is when you get latency related problems. (such as teleporting)
    * Low FPS(Frames Per Second) is when the game starts to stutter and it looks like pictures instead of fluid movement.

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    Shadowlander Moog2010's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siveon View Post
    I like your suggestion of the group duels!
    About pvp topic, i pvp because i prefer the challenge of fighting a human rather then a dumb AI or scripted event simply because its more engaging.
    PvE for me is rather boring has you only need the correct gear and do a simple rotation or have a macro do it for you, meanwhile in pvp even though gear is also important the decisions players make are the true deal that separates the good from the bad players.

    That is a valid point about scripted AI etc...

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    Ascendant Chomag's Avatar
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    If there was no pvp in MMO, they would lose a third of their playerbase.

    When I was playing wow, the pvp realms were always medium-high populated while the pve ones were tagged as "recommended" and "low". You can plainly see a lot of ppl would leave and focuse on other games if there was no pvp at all.

  5. #5
    Ascendant Masta Squidge's Avatar
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    Group duels?

    Holy crap why has nobody thought of that before? I VOTE 5v5 DUELING IN SANCTUM. MAKE IT HAPPEN TRION.


    No really. That would be AWESOME.

  6. #6
    General of Telara Pippington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moog2010 View Post
    Why would you buy an MMO if your main interest is PvP?


    You've obviously never played Warhammer Online, Planetside, DAoC (or on a slightly different bent EvE).


    To be honest I don't know why people would buy an MMO just to PvE, single player games usually are much better at that.

    But no AI ever matches real players in PvP/RvR.



    Although in fairness MMOs excel at RvR, which isn't really the same thing as PvP (although RvR contains PvP of course).

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    Prophet of Telara krilly's Avatar
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    Pvp has been in mmos from the start,.the only old mmo I can think of not to have pvp was eq1. Games like uo and daoc were very pvp. Pvp in general isn't about jumping around like your having a fit spamming instant abilities and locking down your opponent, that is just wow (and wow clone) pvp. Pvp in other games has much more scope for team work and tactics and coordinating your fighting. Top guilds in pvp oriented games like daoc and war, still use voice comms and work on strategies outside fighting just like raid guilds do in pve games. The difference being you can't learn the encounter off by heart through repetitive play,.because in pvp the opponent is also working on ways to counter your setup and tactics.
    Mage - steel cannon
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    Shadowlander Moog2010's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pippington View Post

    To be honest I don't know why people would buy an MMO just to PvE, single player games usually are much better at that.

    But no AI ever matches real players in PvP/RvR.

    Although in fairness MMOs excel at RvR, which isn't really the same thing as PvP (although RvR contains PvP of course).
    Don't forget the team play-aspect of Groups/Raids in PvE? That's what a lot of people play for...

  9. #9
    Shadowlander Moog2010's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krilly View Post
    Pvp has been in mmos from the start,.the only old mmo I can think of not to have pvp was eq1. Games like uo and daoc were very pvp. Pvp in general isn't about jumping around like your having a fit spamming instant abilities and locking down your opponent, that is just wow (and wow clone) pvp. Pvp in other games has much more scope for team work and tactics and coordinating your fighting. Top guilds in pvp oriented games like daoc and war, still use voice comms and work on strategies outside fighting just like raid guilds do in pve games. The difference being you can't learn the encounter off by heart through repetitive play,.because in pvp the opponent is also working on ways to counter your setup and tactics.
    and this is true, too. I haven't really played any high-level/guild PvP.

    Maybe I should give it a try.

  10. #10
    Prophet of Telara krilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moog2010 View Post
    Don't forget the team play-aspect of Groups/Raids in PvE? That's what a lot of people play for...
    That's the same reason a lot of pvp people play mmos, sure there's strategy and tactics involved in games like tf2, but nothing like on the scale of something like daoc.
    Mage - steel cannon
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  11. #11
    Rift Disciple Synjin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chomag View Post
    If there was no pvp in MMO, they would lose a third of their playerbase.

    When I was playing wow, the pvp realms were always medium-high populated while the pve ones were tagged as "recommended" and "low". You can plainly see a lot of ppl would leave and focuse on other games if there was no pvp at all.

    That funny i had toons on high pop pve servers more than one to. While the game would be losing a third (nice made up number by the way) of its players it would be losing 97% of its whiners , man its fun making up numbers!
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    They need to just re-name WoW adventures from the trailer park and and give everyone an rv for a mount...

  12. #12
    Shield of Telara
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    Because the story revolves around two warring sides that don't like each other, with a common enemy. These are still roleplaying games.

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    General of Telara Pippington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krilly View Post
    Pvp has been in mmos from the start,.the only old mmo I can think of not to have pvp was eq1. Games like uo and daoc were very pvp. Pvp in general isn't about jumping around like your having a fit spamming instant abilities and locking down your opponent, that is just wow (and wow clone) pvp. Pvp in other games has much more scope for team work and tactics and coordinating your fighting. Top guilds in pvp oriented games like daoc and war, still use voice comms and work on strategies outside fighting just like raid guilds do in pve games. The difference being you can't learn the encounter off by heart through repetitive play,.because in pvp the opponent is also working on ways to counter your setup and tactics.


    Well EQ1 had some serious PvP servers (player full coin and gear loot! ).

    They also had what were basically the first embryonic "RvR" servers.

    Although it wasn't well made for PvP or RvR.


    Quote Originally Posted by Moog2010 View Post
    Don't forget the team play-aspect of Groups/Raids in PvE? That's what a lot of people play for...

    It's still just learn the script and repeat ad nauseum. Rolling with a warband of your own against a warband (or more) or enemy players is never quite going to be the same each time, and sometimes will be completely different.

    And no AI is going to seize on any mistakes you make, nor do something different to completely surprise you (or call in half the server to kick your ***).

  14. #14
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sumuji View Post
    Because the story revolves around two warring sides that don't like each other, with a common enemy. These are still roleplaying games.
    No? I saw the guardians and defiant fighting between one another in silverwood/freemarch. But after that? I'm talking with Defiant about random stuff in a neutral town. Helping them with rifts. Must be a PvE server thing but do you see "warring sides" whatsoever as you level? Cause I don't except once in a while the guardians will yell about defiant inc.

  15. #15
    Soulwalker
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    People such as myself enjoy MMO pvp for a variety of reasons. Some of these include:

    1. Scale - There aren't many non-mmo pvp games out there that manage to capture the scale you can find in MMOs. In warhammer, for instance, you could have 100s of people on each side in a fight. Most FPS games seem to be about 10 on 10 at most these days.

    2. Character Customization - Unlike FPS games and RTS games where everyone basically has the same options, MMOs allow deeper customization. This provides some connection with your character, and allows you to specialize more than most other games would allow.

    3. Persistence - The world is persistent, I remember the people I play with or against. I can play starcraft and never meet an opponent again. You better believe I remember the people that try to gank me, and revenge ganks are some of the most satisfying experiences ever.

    4. Progression - I get a sense of accomplishment when I get a new piece of gear, a new title, a new mount, etc.

    5. Strategy - Usually, MMOs allow for deeper strategic planning than other PvP games. Due to the many customization options, you can build a team that has skills that complement one another.

    Of course these are just of a few of the reasons. Encounters against thinking opponents are usually more fun than against scripted AIs was mentioned earlier I believe. I think a lot of us are kind of tired of players who are only interested in PVE getting upset when PVP players ask for adjustments to the game. Successful games need both PVE and PVP to thrive.

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