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Thread: The real reason people are calling for nerfs to sab..

  1. #31
    Rift Disciple Koravel's Avatar
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    I withdraw my complaints, such as they were, about Saboteurs. I still think the small nerf I suggested, (make them go off over a period of 0.5s and count as 5 attacks), would be a good idea- then make a 1-point upgrade later in the talent tree that would allow it to count as a single explosion.

    As expected, it becomes balanced late-30s.

    Sabs hit me for ~900, (something like 1.5k crit) with all 5 charges. With 3k health, that is not nearly as much of a problem as it used to be. Do they hit hard? Hell yes. Can I out-heal them if I'm on the ball? With ease.

    The problem has shifted to Champions and the ridiculous amount of CC in the game. 50% healing debuff and constantly being turned into a squirrel, (although, I will admit he is cute), is getting annoying.

    I'm pretty sure I know which side of the PvP soul I'm going for.


    Rashira | Threesprings | Defiant | DominateDominion | Cleric | Level 60

  2. #32
    Rift Disciple Koravel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmicks View Post
    Guess how much damage saboteur does when the charges are dispelled.
    This excuse, otoh, is laughable.

    Quit attacking healers and saying we can dispel the charges. It's a myth. Rogues have a shorter GCD, so even if we were to sit there and spam dispel/cleanse, we can't take them off as fast as they can be put on. And we're not healing anyone while we're sitting there doing that, either.

    In short, don't ask me to dispel a Sab's charges. As the game currently is, it's not worth my time. I might drop one cleanse right as he hits 5 charges because most sabs will detonate as soon as they reach 5, so I avoid 20% of the damage- but as far as cleansing them off entirely? Not possible.


    Rashira | Threesprings | Defiant | DominateDominion | Cleric | Level 60

  3. #33
    Rift Disciple Schmicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koravel View Post
    This excuse, otoh, is laughable.

    Quit attacking healers and saying we can dispel the charges. It's a myth. Rogues have a shorter GCD, so even if we were to sit there and spam dispel/cleanse, we can't take them off as fast as they can be put on. And we're not healing anyone while we're sitting there doing that, either.

    In short, don't ask me to dispel a Sab's charges. As the game currently is, it's not worth my time. I might drop one cleanse right as he hits 5 charges because most sabs will detonate as soon as they reach 5, so I avoid 20% of the damage- but as far as cleansing them off entirely? Not possible.
    I already said, you don't have to cleanse them all, just 1-2 to prevent going down too low on health. After that, before he can put new charges, on the damage he's done will be outhealed. There are many other ways to counter a sabo though. And as I pointed somewhere in this forum already. A dominator mage can end up a fight vs a sabo almost untouched with the rogue looking through the combat log at wtf has happened.
    Last edited by Schmicks; 03-07-2011 at 06:22 AM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmicks View Post
    I already said, you don't have to cleanse them all, just 1-2 to prevent going down too low on health.
    You realize he can just keep applying them back. I don't know why people expect healers to watch for all debuffs but NOT expect dps to watch their own.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timaeus552 View Post
    I see, silly me. To expect not to go from 75% to 0 from one spell when the charges are attached...
    Nothing wrong with something that can't be healed through or anything ..
    It can be healed, clerics need to cleanse. Or, if you're a rogue soul, invest in infiltrator and clean thyself.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightfallRob View Post
    It can be healed, clerics need to cleanse. Or, if you're a rogue soul, invest in infiltrator and clean thyself.
    Seeing as clerics have longer GCD, that is hard. And until you're lvl 50, you can't invest past the first tier point in pvp soul ...

    So i guess what you're trying to say is. "It's ok for sabs to one shot people, aslong as we're not lvl 50" that makes sense...

    Dear trion, i would like a killing aura, it should work from lvl 1-49, and acording to what's his name, it's alright to one shot people aslong you're not lvl 50 kk thanks ...
    Last edited by Timaeus552; 03-07-2011 at 12:52 PM.

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    My take on this is just poor play. As with any game instead figuring out a work around, people ask for nerfs. Well the game is new to people and different, so yes you will get owned by your nemisis until you find his weekness, then it will be gg. Actually won 7 in a row with premade so the classes arent broken. I lost a ton before I started doing premades with my buddies.

  8. #38
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    3570 damage from a level 34 Sab in 10 seconds on my 37 warrior. I don't think my champ spec could come close to that in 10 seconds. At the time I was playing Reaver/BM spec, so there was no possibility of killing that Sab before he killed me, and I can promise you I did nowhere remotely close to that amount of damage to him in 10 seconds. Probably not even half that. So much for sacrificing damage for survivability.
    Last edited by Vember; 03-07-2011 at 01:34 PM.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by synrgy View Post
    My take on this is just poor play. As with any game instead figuring out a work around, people ask for nerfs. Well the game is new to people and different, so yes you will get owned by your nemisis until you find his weekness, then it will be gg. Actually won 7 in a row with premade so the classes arent broken. I lost a ton before I started doing premades with my buddies.
    So you don't think there's something wrong that you can go from 100% to 0 from 1 dmg spell?
    And you saying you've won 7 in a row has nothing to do with it, i've done that aswell, but that doesn't change the fact, there's something wrong if one second you can be at full health, and the next at the GY.
    The only way that should be possible is if the whole raid focuses on you, but here we're talking about one guy doing it.

    And don't start with the crap about dispelling charges (Rogue's have shorter GCD) don't waste your breath on saying "Get PVP soul" because it only gives you a 'pvp trinket' until you're lvl 50, and start gaining prestige rank.

    I would like to mention more ways how you can "avoid" sabo dmg, but those two seems to be the only ones the sabs come with, and they're not viable against a combetent sabo ..

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koravel View Post
    I withdraw my complaints, such as they were, about Saboteurs. I still think the small nerf I suggested, (make them go off over a period of 0.5s and count as 5 attacks), would be a good idea- then make a 1-point upgrade later in the talent tree that would allow it to count as a single explosion.

    As expected, it becomes balanced late-30s.

    Sabs hit me for ~900, (something like 1.5k crit) with all 5 charges. With 3k health, that is not nearly as much of a problem as it used to be. Do they hit hard? Hell yes. Can I out-heal them if I'm on the ball? With ease.

    The problem has shifted to Champions and the ridiculous amount of CC in the game. 50% healing debuff and constantly being turned into a squirrel, (although, I will admit he is cute), is getting annoying.

    I'm pretty sure I know which side of the PvP soul I'm going for.
    once you get up in the ranks they are hardly a problem. Glad to see some people are seeing it now.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timaeus552 View Post
    So you don't think there's something wrong that you can go from 100% to 0 from 1 dmg spell?
    And you saying you've won 7 in a row has nothing to do with it, i've done that aswell, but that doesn't change the fact, there's something wrong if one second you can be at full health, and the next at the GY.
    The only way that should be possible is if the whole raid focuses on you, but here we're talking about one guy doing it.

    And don't start with the crap about dispelling charges (Rogue's have shorter GCD) don't waste your breath on saying "Get PVP soul" because it only gives you a 'pvp trinket' until you're lvl 50, and start gaining prestige rank.

    I would like to mention more ways how you can "avoid" sabo dmg, but those two seems to be the only ones the sabs come with, and they're not viable against a combetent sabo ..
    I think the prudent question here is: What kind of tissue paper armor are you wearing? 100->0 is certainly within the realm of possibility in the 10-19 bracket, but if you're dying that quickly past that point, you must have ungodly armor.

  12. #42
    Rift Disciple Spug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xvvt View Post
    I think sabos are fine, but I did laugh when this happened:

    http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...-06_213553.jpg

    5280 through avatar of water and 4% valor.
    This is the reason why anyone defending Sabs cant really be taken seriously. It takes longer to dispel than to apply charges, so you'd need two dispels working constantly in unison, and also no other debuffs chewing up dispels.

    The OP says this is a team game. Yeah, it is. So why should one class get to completely eliminate someone with two abilities? The only defense to this is dispels which are in high order in a warfront and really hard to roll, and as aforementioned, one dispel isn't enough. The fact they can do this from range is even worse. I've have, a few times, been dropped from 100% to 0. By a single ability. If you defend this, you're delusional as to what PvP balance is. Any class critting for even 3K+ right now is a problem.

    I'm a level 50 Shaman/Sent/Temp in PvP, and I get rickrolled through Glacial Shield and my entire HP pool by a single ability. How is that balanced?

    Also, to the helmet wearers commenting on how it's not a big deal at 30 - you're right, it isn't. But who gives a flying white **** about level 30 PvP? Talk about how it crits for overkills on entire health pools with a shield up at 50.

    I already said, you don't have to cleanse them all, just 1-2 to prevent going down too low on health. After that, before he can put new charges, on the damage he's done will be outhealed. There are many other ways to counter a sabo though. And as I pointed somewhere in this forum already. A dominator mage can end up a fight vs a sabo almost untouched with the rogue looking through the combat log at wtf has happened.
    This is the common "Let's pretend the healer is really good and the Sab is really bad" edge of the argument. No Sab worth their salt will set off at 3 stacks. At 5 stacks, it takes us 2 GCD's to burn down to 3. If he's that slow reapplying or detonating, he's terrible. This game should not be balanced around Sabs with molasses fingers.

    I think the prudent question here is: What kind of tissue paper armor are you wearing? 100->0 is certainly within the realm of possibility in the 10-19 bracket, but if you're dying that quickly past that point, you must have ungodly armor.
    Well this is a dumb argument. Full chain with 4400HP and Glacial Shield up and I die outright the odd time, without Glacial Shield up (30 second CD, burned off in about 3 seconds or less vs most classes) it's an automatic one shot if it crits.
    Last edited by Spug; 03-07-2011 at 03:21 PM.
    "The problem is that the people with the most ridiculous ideas are always the people who are most certain of them."

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koravel View Post
    I withdraw my complaints, such as they were, about Saboteurs. I still think the small nerf I suggested, (make them go off over a period of 0.5s and count as 5 attacks), would be a good idea- then make a 1-point upgrade later in the talent tree that would allow it to count as a single explosion.

    As expected, it becomes balanced late-30s.

    Sabs hit me for ~900, (something like 1.5k crit) with all 5 charges. With 3k health, that is not nearly as much of a problem as it used to be. Do they hit hard? Hell yes. Can I out-heal them if I'm on the ball? With ease.

    The problem has shifted to Champions and the ridiculous amount of CC in the game. 50% healing debuff and constantly being turned into a squirrel, (although, I will admit he is cute), is getting annoying.

    I'm pretty sure I know which side of the PvP soul I'm going for.
    I hope you are not saying nerf DOMs lol....BUT i will add that the squirell thing should be higher in the tree for a DOM..I think Champs have way to much CC WITH the crazy damage they do. DOMs sacerfice low hps low armour and alot to do CC not everyone and there mother should have anywhere near as much cc as a dom spec and exspecially not a tank class

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spug View Post
    This is the reason why anyone defending Sabs cant really be taken seriously. It takes longer to dispel than to apply charges, so you'd need two dispels working constantly in unison, and also no other debuffs chewing up dispels.

    The OP says this is a team game. Yeah, it is. So why should one class get to completely eliminate someone with two abilities? The only defense to this is dispels which are in high order in a warfront and really hard to roll, and as aforementioned, one dispel isn't enough. The fact they can do this from range is even worse. I've have, a few times, been dropped from 100% to 0. By a single ability. If you defend this, you're delusional as to what PvP balance is. Any class critting for even 3K+ right now is a problem.

    I'm a level 50 Shaman/Sent/Temp in PvP, and I get rickrolled through Glacial Shield and my entire HP pool by a single ability. How is that balanced?

    Also, to the helmet wearers commenting on how it's not a big deal at 30 - you're right, it isn't. But who gives a flying white **** about level 30 PvP? Talk about how it crits for overkills on entire health pools with a shield up at 50.



    This is the common "Let's pretend the healer is really good and the Sab is really bad" edge of the argument. No Sab worth their salt will set off at 3 stacks. At 5 stacks, it takes us 2 GCD's to burn down to 3. If he's that slow reapplying or detonating, he's terrible. This game should not be balanced around Sabs with molasses fingers.



    Well this is a dumb argument. Full chain with 4400HP and Glacial Shield up and I die outright the odd time, without Glacial Shield up (30 second CD, burned off in about 3 seconds or less vs most classes) it's an automatic one shot if it crits.
    and to add a little..they can apply 5 charges at once...and there charges are at -50% armour lol..this class need to be balanced in some realm of the rest of the classes..well besides champs

  15. #45
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    Why would you take a crit into question? It's completely RNG-based and has no bearing on the conversation at hand.

    I do think, however, that Saboteurs need a bit of tweaking to fix what some are calling the "massive imbalance" they cause in PvP. All it would take is a simple cast time and range reduction in Detonation and poof! Problem solved. This way, it's entirely your team's fault if they allow the Saboteur to get off their Detonation unhindered. No more QQing about how OP the class is.

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