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Thread: Core problems with rift PvP

  1. #1
    Shadowlander
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    Default Core problems with rift PvP

    I'm not trying to QQ just to vent my frustration, I'm laying this out because there was no survey asking me why I canceled my subscription, and I want to lay it out for any moderator who may read this.

    First of all, certain archetypes and souls are vastly superior to others. It's bad enough that several of my level 50 friends simply aren't doing PvP until it's more balanced, because they can't enjoy it. Particularly, warriors seem to be the main overpowered archetype. I've heard arguments that anyone who can't handle warriors needs to learn to CC or disable, and that warriors only have x amount of abilities to get them out of crowd control.

    My response to this is 1) a single archetype should not be so much more deadly than every other class that special care needs to be taken to keep it out of operation. After all, when you create a rogue or a mage you generally expect to be the glass cannon that needs to be killed or CCed to avoid major damage. Moreover, assuming everyone really did CC/disable the crap out of warriors, would that be a fun role to play for a player? Your job would be to be really dangerous, but essentially you'd be a walking pin cushion for disables and CC so you'd never get to hit anyone. No one class should be that much more dangerous than others.

    Secondly, Saboteurs are unfortunately a bad soul design. From a healer's perspective, I can't remove the bomb charges, I can hardly even tell when they are on a player. Even when I do notice someone has a growing stack of bombs on them, all I can do is try to get them to full health. If the sab gets a lucky crit, the target usually drops to 75% or lower, at which point he's probably going to die before I can get him back up. So in a warfront with sabs, as a healer it's like playing an impossible game of whack-a-mole. I see someone at 70% so I apply a few HoTs to be mana efficient, and throw a quick cast heal, and all of the sudden they die instantly from 5 sabo charges. That's not fun, for the person dying or the person healing. It's an odd mechanic that I think needs some more serious thought.

    Aside from some other issues, one of my biggest problems is highly subjective, but I think it's important to hear either way. Chances are out of a million+ people I'm not the only one who feels this way. Warfronts just aren't that fun. It could be from the balance, but I think it's a lot trickier than that. I've played a bit of every role, and here is how I've felt. As a DPS, I don't feel like I can kill anyone unless a healer is OOM/not present. You can't burst through heals, a lot of times even two or three people can't. How useful does that make you feel as a DPS that one player is essentially worth three of you.

    A lot will probably disagree with me here, but the only real solution to the above is an organized group in which targets are being called and focus fired. But is that fun? If 7 people focus one person, he has no chance of being healed and kept up, he has no chance to react, and those 7 dps killing him will probably use about a 10th as effort individually. In my opinion, expending effort and thought is part of the fun in PvP. I don't enjoy PvE because you're generally just smashing out a rotation, I want to be engaged in small skirmishes within bigger battles in a battleground, and to occasionally have a 1v1. In Rift, 1v1 isn't even rock paper scissors. It's Warriors are rocks, everyone else is scissors. And if you're trying to kill a cleric he's freaking titanium because you might as well go punch a block of that.

    And FINALLY, as though I haven't rambled enough. The absolute biggest problem with Rift PvP. There's so much work put into the specific PvP soul, the multi-tiered PvP rewards and unique armor skins that look great IMO, etc. But, all that for just warfronts? There are no arenas, no official open world pvp, no ranked warfronts, no PvP based rifts (seriously, the game is about rifts, don't you think rifts should spawn in cities that players can jump in and spawn a guardian/defiant invasion/rift in an opposing zone or something?). Essentially, we're given all these tools to PvP with, but the medium through which we can do so is extremely limited. A lot of WoW players consider battlegrounds a necessary evil that you have to get through to compete in arenas, because the real fun is in arenas, or ranked battlegrounds. So in Rift, you could argue that we're given the evil part of PvP, the grinding zone where you numb your mind to get the gear is it. Once you have the gear what can you do? You can go back in the warfronts you're sick of by then and play one game a day to beat up on people with less gear.

    Anyway, for anyone who actually read through all that, I assume you might be thinking along the same lines, or I just piss you off so much you couldn't stop reading it. Either way, I have a feeling that I'm not the *only* person who feels this way, and if PvP is going to be in your game, take it seriously. Don't put PvP in an MMO and just say it is what it is, have fun. A lot of people pick up a game for the PvP, and it sucks to realize 60 dollars later that it's a neglected red-headed step child. Anyway, I know 90% of what I've commented on is subjective. Hopefully there's something helpful in all that though. And I hope I'll see changes in the coming weeks/months/years that encourage me to come back, because I want to.

  2. #2
    Telaran Roxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lochness100 View Post
    Aside from some other issues, one of my biggest problems is highly subjective, but I think it's important to hear either way. Chances are out of a million+ people I'm not the only one who feels this way. Warfronts just aren't that fun. It could be from the balance, but I think it's a lot trickier than that. I've played a bit of every role, and here is how I've felt. As a DPS, I don't feel like I can kill anyone unless a healer is OOM/not present. You can't burst through heals, a lot of times even two or three people can't. How useful does that make you feel as a DPS that one player is essentially worth three of you.

    A lot will probably disagree with me here, but the only real solution to the above is an organized group in which targets are being called and focus fired. But is that fun? If 7 people focus one person, he has no chance of being healed and kept up, he has no chance to react, and those 7 dps killing him will probably use about a 10th as effort individually. In my opinion, expending effort and thought is part of the fun in PvP. I don't enjoy PvE because you're generally just smashing out a rotation, I want to be engaged in small skirmishes within bigger battles in a battleground, and to occasionally have a 1v1. In Rift, 1v1 isn't even rock paper scissors. It's Warriors are rocks, everyone else is scissors. And if you're trying to kill a cleric he's freaking titanium because you might as well go punch a block of that.

    And FINALLY, as though I haven't rambled enough. The absolute biggest problem with Rift PvP. There's so much work put into the specific PvP soul, the multi-tiered PvP rewards and unique armor skins that look great IMO, etc. But, all that for just warfronts? There are no arenas, no official open world pvp, no ranked warfronts, no PvP based rifts (seriously, the game is about rifts, don't you think rifts should spawn in cities that players can jump in and spawn a guardian/defiant invasion/rift in an opposing zone or something?). Essentially, we're given all these tools to PvP with, but the medium through which we can do so is extremely limited. A lot of WoW players consider battlegrounds a necessary evil that you have to get through to compete in arenas, because the real fun is in arenas, or ranked battlegrounds. So in Rift, you could argue that we're given the evil part of PvP, the grinding zone where you numb your mind to get the gear is it. Once you have the gear what can you do? You can go back in the warfronts you're sick of by then and play one game a day to beat up on people with less gear.
    You have the attention span of a goldfish man.

    Took Blizz forever to realize how badass eSport PvP is atleast give Trion some time to design theirs.

    Every Rift at 50 is gonna be PvP we have to fight over em.

    Dumbest thing about this post was you saying co-ordinating a kill target and CC isn't fun. You do realize WFs are team-based matches right? You wasted your time typing as soon as you admitted that you don't get it.

    btw soon as your subscription runs out Warriors will probably be nerfed anyways. gl in your future attention deficit disorder gaming adventures.
    Briarcliff PvP or it doesn't count.

  3. #3
    Rift Disciple
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    unfortunately i have to agree with thread title in a way. pvp is really sad in this game and it got way more than "core" problems.

  4. #4
    Shield of Telara BlackUdder's Avatar
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    As a ranger/mm I feel pretty useless, most of my attacks are dodged or missed or simply do piddly damage. If there's a healer nearby, forget it - hell, if there's 3 rangers attacking someone getting healed you will still hardly make a dent.

    And that lead's my to play a Sab in WF's, that was at least I have slows that will actually hit, and damage that will actually have a noticeable impact.

    However, even with a sab - I spend most of my time CC'd or dead. Perma squirrel anyone? (why does this spell not have diminishing returns like all the rest, and why does it last so long in PVP!) or stunned to dead in >5 seconds by a TANK.

    So at 40+ my feeling is that unless you are a cleric or warrior don't even bother.

    I just wish they have meaningful / fun, WORLD PVP and half decent balance - is that too much to ask for these days?

    /rant

  5. #5
    Rift Disciple Schmicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackUdder View Post
    However, even with a sab - I spend most of my time CC'd or dead.
    "Play with a team. This isn't a solo hero game."

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackUdder View Post
    Perma squirrel anyone? (why does this spell not have diminishing returns like all the rest, and why does it last so long in PVP!)
    It's time is limited in pvp, it has diminishing returns and you get immune.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackUdder View Post
    or stunned to dead in >5 seconds by a TANK.
    "Play with a team. This isn't a solo hero game."

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackUdder View Post
    So at 40+ my feeling is that unless you are a cleric or warrior don't even bother.
    Warriors are easily cced and destroyed. So are clerics. In fact, any class is easily annihilated. But that requires teamplay.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackUdder View Post
    I just wish they have meaningful / fun, WORLD PVP and half decent balance - is that too much to ask for these days?
    The game is balanced. There are so many combinations and options that you can counter any fotm easily.
    Last edited by Schmicks; 03-06-2011 at 03:44 PM.

  6. #6
    Shield of Telara BlackUdder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmicks View Post
    "Play with a team. This isn't a solo hero game."
    It has world PVP doesn't it?

    Oh, you mean those exciting things called warfronts? Where whoever has more warriors and cleric's win (mostly warriors though). Oh, sounds like a great team game to me!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmicks View Post
    It's time is limited in pvp, it has diminishing returns and you get immune.
    Not enough. And i've been chain squirreled at least 3 times in a row, and by the time it breaks on damage I'm usually 50% dead anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmicks View Post
    "Play with a team. This isn't a solo hero game."
    Yeah, a team of warriors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmicks View Post
    The game is balanced. There are so many combinations and options that you can counter any fotm easily.
    Said like a true WARRIOR.
    Last edited by BlackUdder; 03-06-2011 at 03:59 PM.

  7. #7
    Rift Disciple Schmicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackUdder View Post
    Said like a true WARRIOR.
    Sorry to burst your bubble, but I play a mage. In a team. We use tactics, play to each others strengths and don't care about your team of warriors. They will be squirreled, disoriented, energy starved, diarmed, slowed, rooted, stuned, etc. And dispatched to the spawn point soon after.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackUdder View Post
    Not enough. And i've been chain squirreled at least 3 times in a row, and by the time it breaks on damage I'm usually 50% dead anyway.
    There's a magic ability your TEAM can use to avoid this. It's called a dispel. It removes the squirrel but does not affect the already accumulated diminishing returns / immunities.

  8. #8
    Shield of Telara BlackUdder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmicks View Post
    Sorry to burst your bubble, but I play a mage. In a team. We use tactics, play to each others strengths and don't care about your team of warriors. They will be squirreled, disoriented, energy starved, diarmed, slowed, rooted, stuned, etc. And dispatched to the spawn point soon after.


    There's a magic ability your TEAM can use to avoid this. It's called a dispel. It removes the squirrel but does not affect the already accumulated diminishing returns / immunities.
    Yeah, TEAMWORK that requires healers. Didn't I cover this already?

    So your pre-made can kill pugs, wow, there's an accomplishment! Every class must be balanced because you guys USE TEAMWORK.

    lol?!

    Ranged tanks outdamaging rangers/mm = problem
    Melee tanks killing people within seconds = problem

    Obvious balance flaw is obvious.
    Last edited by BlackUdder; 03-06-2011 at 04:17 PM.

  9. #9
    Rift Disciple Schmicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackUdder View Post
    Yeah, TEAMWORK that requires healers. Didn't I cover this already?

    So your pre-made can kill pugs, wow, there's an accomplishment! Every class must be balanced because you guys USE TEAMWORK.

    lol?!
    It's not the game's problem you expect one random group of people to be 100% equal to another random group of people. It never will.

  10. #10
    Rift Chaser Wyrath's Avatar
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    I read your post and found it quite reasonable, OP.

    Here's the reason why I will end my subscription soon (I think):

    - Clear bias towards one class:
    Sure, keep denying it, Warriors. You are skilled, everyone else isn't. -We- need to l2p and all that jazz, Champions are fine and so forth. It actually disgusts me as a person interested in game development that one class is just stronger than others. The only reason to roll anything else than Warrior is that Warriors are even more powerful when surrounded by healers and CCers (to give an edge in the Warrior+group on Warrior+group action).

    - Clear bias towards premades/organized PvP:
    This I fear is the taint of Warhammer. Most people DO NOT think that the epitome of skill is to have a Warrior and a few healbots roll up a team of randoms. It is not fun to play against, and it is certainly not fun or engaging to beat up on hapless people either (or is it? I guess some people get a kick out of beating up on helpless fools). Give us queues for PUGs AND queues for premades, please.

    - PvE game with some generic PvP content tagging along:
    It is quite clear that the game is meant for PvE and it is even being said officially, I hear. Still, I do think it is ridiculous that everyone can spew out tons of damage and healing, and the ability of tanks to mitigate damage in this game is just obscene. If you have to make a game based on PvE, then at least give some modifiers or alternate specs for PvP. There is actually a huge segment of gamers that love this part of the game.

    I guess I will get flamed now for having a different view on things than the resident TEAM DENIAL, but I think that as a customer my opinion is worth the same as yours (even if you don't). Rift could be a great game, but the whole "group PvP or bust"-mentality has just ruined it (for me at least).

    Have fun in your ghost town to come.
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  11. #11
    Shadowlander
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    You have the attention span of a goldfish man.

    Took Blizz forever to realize how badass eSport PvP is atleast give Trion some time to design theirs.
    I'm not going to say you're out of line, because I see where you're coming from. Yet, I think it's important to note that maybe it took blizz forever to realize PvP as an eSport was a good idea, but the whole point of releasing new MMOs is learning from previous games. Trion can't use the excuse that they didn't realize people were into that, because it takes about 10 seconds of researching WoW for arenas to come up, and the huge following they generate.

    And I agree I'm barely giving them any time, but that's why I mention that I'm hoping to come back if I see changes. I'm just not willing to sink time into a character in hopes that they will eventually get around to fixing it. If I learn that they make changes that seem good, then I'll feel like sinking my time into a character. Until then, I don't want to gamble with such a large chunk of my own time.

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    Shadowlander Uruloki's Avatar
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    Here's a thought... You're playing an MMO to get your PvP on.
    What's the main attaction to an MMO? That's right... massive crowds of people to kill. Is it not then common sense to bring a massive crowd of people with you to kill a massive crowd of people? I dont know about you, but I have no expectation of killing 3+ enemy players on my own... no matter WHAT class/soul/archetype/wtfever I'm using. Sooooo lets try using our brains here. If you like like killing people... but you dont like needing people to help you kill people... play a game that doesnt involve massive numbers of people, or quit trying to ruin a game that does.


  13. #13
    Shadowlander
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    Uruloki

    Here's a thought... You're playing an MMO to get your PvP on.
    What's the main attaction to an MMO? That's right... massive crowds of people to kill. Is it not then common sense to bring a massive crowd of people with you to kill a massive crowd of people? I dont know about you, but I have no expectation of killing 3+ enemy players on my own... no matter WHAT class/soul/archetype/wtfever I'm using. Sooooo lets try using our brains here. If you like like killing people... but you dont like needing people to help you kill people... play a game that doesnt involve massive numbers of people, or quit trying to ruin a game that does.
    I understand what you're getting at, but I think you may have misunderstood my complaint. I don't expect to be able to kill 3 people, but I do expect to be able to kill 1. As soon as 1 person can't kill another person because person a is a certain archetype and person b is another, person a likely isn't having as much fun as person b. I think that's a problem.

    Sorry to make a WoW reference, but, here goes. In WoW with a few exceptions, every class stands a chance 1v1 against any other class. If you think of it in like... a mathematical sense, I think that's the basis for balanced PvP. If every person has an equal chance to kill any other class 1v1, then no matter the class distribution in a warfront, it comes down to who plays better as a team or who uses their class to the fullest most effectively on an individual level.

    In short, if PvP is balanced around 1v1, which it isn't in Rift, then it actually makes group play more dynamic, skill based, team oriented, and arguably more fun. The developers of WoW understand that, and that's why they are *constantly* tweaking for class balance.

  14. #14
    Telaran Melubb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lochness100 View Post
    I understand what you're getting at, but I think you may have misunderstood my complaint. I don't expect to be able to kill 3 people, but I do expect to be able to kill 1. As soon as 1 person can't kill another person because person a is a certain archetype and person b is another, person a likely isn't having as much fun as person b. I think that's a problem.

    Sorry to make a WoW reference, but, here goes. In WoW with a few exceptions, every class stands a chance 1v1 against any other class. If you think of it in like... a mathematical sense, I think that's the basis for balanced PvP. If every person has an equal chance to kill any other class 1v1, then no matter the class distribution in a warfront, it comes down to who plays better as a team or who uses their class to the fullest most effectively on an individual level.

    In short, if PvP is balanced around 1v1, which it isn't in Rift, then it actually makes group play more dynamic, skill based, team oriented, and arguably more fun. The developers of WoW understand that, and that's why they are *constantly* tweaking for class balance.
    I've never tried WoW.
    But Shadowbane got a similar PvP system, it's not balanced 1 vs 1 - they use a different mindset, a system
    that works within the lore.
    Rift got their own unique PvP/GvG system that works well concerning the aspect of PvP in general.
    I can kill a warrior with ease 1 vs 1. with any souls or classes - it's about positioning, timing,
    and use the combo system perfectly.
    And u know that the 4 main classes in Rift got all access to PvP subclasses u can get with
    enough favors from the Warfronts/Arena?
    It cost 2500 favors, which is not expensive.
    And I guess u didn't know that most of the PvP classes have magic resistance, stun breaks and
    skills related to PvP aspect of the game.
    Sorry, but this sounds more like whining than anything else, m8.
    It takes years to get skilled in PvP even in a MMO - I've practiced
    PvP since pre-trammel in UO late 97 - to large scale banes in 2003, Shadowbane.
    -M
    Last edited by Melubb; 03-06-2011 at 05:45 PM.
    'Hey dude, lets go out farming?!!*...#%'
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  15. #15
    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melubb View Post
    I've never tried WoW.
    But Shadowbane got a similar PvP system, it's not balanced 1 vs 1 - they use a different mindset, a system
    that works within the lore.
    Rift got their own unique PvP/GvG system that works well concerning the aspect of PvP in general.
    I can kill a warrior with ease 1 vs 1. with any souls or classes - it's about positioning, timing,
    and use the combo system perfectly.
    And u know that the 4 main classes in Rift got all access to PvP subclasses u can get with
    enough favors from the Warfronts/Arena?
    It cost 2500 favors, which is not expensive.
    And I guess u didn't know that most of the PvP classes have magic resistance, stun breaks and
    skills related to PvP aspect of the game.
    Sorry, but this sounds more like whining than anything else, m8.
    It takes years to get skilled in PvP even in a MMO - I've practiced
    PvP since pre-trammel in UO late 97 - to large scale banes in 2003, Shadowbane.
    -M
    Agree, this forum is very poorly developed. It's basically 1,2 dudes *****ing about how they suck at PvP and don't address any "CORE" issues.

    Keep in mind the game has been out for a month and people are already complaining about no rated battlegrounds? Seriously? 1 Month? I'd rather the devs focus on login and security problems more within the first month or so than to rush and develop a rated arena system.

    This game has had an amazing launch. It is by far the most polished MMO at launch I've played with the most amount of class diversity.

    If you keep getting pummeled by Warriors keep in mind there are only 3 other base classes, maybe the souls you are choosing simply don't work well together, or maybe you don't know how to play with your teammates on a warfront, or maybe both.

    Either way I'm impressed by the game and I was hoping this forum addressed more specific issues like Sabos charges not being curable or specific abilities seeming too OP. (Squirrel is easy to counter, don't run around alone)

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