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Thread: Arguements against Arena/Rated Systems and Premades -

  1. #1
    Shadowlander
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    Default Arguements against Arena/Rated Systems and Premades -

    The major arguments against implementing arenas are:

    Open world PvP will cease to exist. -

    Players leveling see the opposite faction consistently. There are no ways of transport other than walking, and porticulums directly to towns, which forces players to walk through the open world, open for attack. PvP guilds constantly attack towns and leveling areas of the opposite faction as guild events. Regardless of small groups of players doing warfronts and/or arena, the remaining players are constantly open for PvP attacks in the open world.

    Classes will be balanced around PvP instead of PvE. -

    First off, I would like to state that a very large part of the community is focused on PvP play. This is shown by the huge support for PvP servers, open PvP, and warfronts, which are all ingame and discussed constantly. I cannot stress enough how many players are actively playing Rift for the PvP aspect of the game. There is absolutely no reason that PvE should be prioritized over PvP, or that PvP gameplay should be restricted to only casual play.

    Secondly, Trion already has a great system in place to balance PvP without affecting PvE in any way. They are called PvP souls. With these souls, Trion is able to entirely change and balance classes for PvP in these souls for large and small scale situations. More PvP souls could be added, they could be required, they could be only active in Arena and warfronts - there are so many ways to make PvP and PvE balance separate with content that is already in place.

    Arena would give rewards, which is unfair for other players. -

    Most serious PvP players do not play for the ingame rewards. They play for the rush, competition, ratings, teamplay, and amazing feel of that close win. Arena gives a style of gameplay that cannot be equaled by large scale PvP. We all agree that giving only vanity rewards and titles is fine.

    However, I don't think I can stress enough how close minded it is to think that being able to get meaningful rewards from PvP is any less fair than it is for PvE players to be able to complete a raid and receive high end equipment. There are some great suggestions for Warfronts (specifically one that really stood out to me) that would entirely eliminate leechers and AFKers, essentially creating a controlled way for players to play PvP in the same ways that players are already able to play PvE, with the same availability of rewards in a very fair way.

    Arena ruined PvP in WoW. -

    Rated arenas expose blatant balance issues. In World of Warcraft, they resorted to huge nerfs and unreasonable and unneeded buffs to classes, along with constantly changing the entire playstyle of others. This has been happening more often during later arena seasons. This was a major reason that players were frustrated with the class balance in WoW. The class system in WoW is not flexible in any way, and they do not have any content in place to either separate PvE and PvP skills or talents. WoW was not ruined from Arena, it was ruined from their inability to balance PvP separately from PvE, which Rift has a solution for.

    Premades vs PuGs is unfair for casual players? -

    Players that want to play Rift for the PvP aspect of the game are forced to play casually, and with random players. This is like telling a hardcore PvE player that they can only do dungeons, or complete a raid with 5 chosen players, and the rest must be random, so that the random and casual players will be able to have access to the PvE raiding gear.

  2. #2
    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laci View Post
    Premades vs PuGs is unfair for casual players? -

    Players that want to play Rift for the PvP aspect of the game are forced to play casually, and with random players. This is like telling a hardcore PvE player that they can only do dungeons, or complete a raid with 5 chosen players, and the rest must be random, so that the random and casual players will be able to have access to the PvE raiding gear.
    Totally agree with that. I've never understood why PvE is prioritized over PvP in most major MMOs. A lot of players focus entirely on PvP, and deserve the same options for group gameplay as a PvE player.
    Last edited by Schio; 03-06-2011 at 12:46 AM.

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    Soulwalker
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    I would like to see more world pvp myself. Maybe they could encourage it more by adding a motivating factor like a new type of favor that could onlly be obtained through world pvp kills. With this new type of favor they could add gear merchants where you could purchase items from it.

    If not maybe some other ideas may help.

  4. #4
    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegleg View Post
    I would like to see more world pvp myself. Maybe they could encourage it more by adding a motivating factor like a new type of favor that could onlly be obtained through world pvp kills. With this new type of favor they could add gear merchants where you could purchase items from it.

    If not maybe some other ideas may help.
    I would like to see more world PvP also. When more players reach the level 50 cap, guilds will start to attack the enemy's towns, etc.

    I don't think that Arena and Warfronts should be the main style of PvP, Trion should most definitely focus on increasing world PvP. I do think though, that arena and premade warfronts should be an option for when you have nothing else to do, and to give PvP gameplay more variety, availability, and competition.

    Another great idea to increase world PvP would be to give guilds the ability to accept Objectives (similar to guild quests), where taking over an enemy town or something similar would 'drop' a high end PvP item.
    Last edited by Laci; 03-06-2011 at 01:17 AM.

  5. #5
    Rift Disciple Rivermagic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laci View Post
    The major arguments against implementing arenas are:

    Open world PvP will cease to exist. -
    Not true, and I dont see how it would?? Players whould still have to enter the world in order to grind even at max lvl


    Classes will be balanced around PvP instead of PvE.
    Also not true, while balancing around PVP would have to be taken into consideration, Classes would still be balanced primarlily around PVE.
    Rift is also unique in the PVP soul system which makes balancing issues easier

    Arena would give rewards, which is unfair for other players.
    what??? so arena shouldnt reward high end play but raiding is fine?
    You do realise that is the point of an MMO, the better you are, the better you gear...
    Also, arena gear aint exactly awesome for PVE

    Arena ruined PvP in WoW.
    What?

    [/I]Premades vs PuGs is unfair for casual players?[I][B]
    tough, life is unfair. Also what is wrong with making a RBG system like WoW in cata? this avoids pugs v premades, most hardcore pvp guilds would rather meet competition that can put up a challenge anyway not some scrub random backpeddlers

    So I really dont see what the problem is here, you can have your raids but we want some sort of competitive play be it RBGs or arenas

  6. #6
    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivermagic View Post
    ... your post here ..
    Hey Rivermagic,

    You really misunderstood my post. Please read the entire thread before you reply. I am posting the common arguments used by players that do not want Arenas and premade warfronts, and I have posted the reasons why these arguments are invalid under those.
    Last edited by Laci; 03-06-2011 at 01:50 AM.

  7. #7
    Rift Disciple
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    If Trion decides to add competition PvP I believe they will also add new awesome rewards. Epic PvP items that are much better...
    It would make no sense without such rewards.

    Perhaps you are a OK PvP player but not elite. You will lose 70% when fighting a elite player if you have the same gear. With epic elite gear that player would perhaps beat you 95%...

    Of course that would make things worse. It would increase the difference between the best and the average. It would change all PvP...

  8. #8
    Shadowlander
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    Trion already has PvP items ingame for favor from Warfronts and open world PvP, which is essentially the same as what you are saying (a player without PvP equipment vs. a player with PvP equipment). However, taken from my original thread -

    "Most serious PvP players do not play for the ingame rewards. They play for the rush, competition, ratings, teamplay, and amazing feel of that close win. Arena gives a style of gameplay that cannot be equaled by large scale PvP. We all agree that giving only vanity rewards and titles is fine."
    Last edited by Laci; 03-06-2011 at 02:29 AM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laci View Post
    Trion already has PvP items ingame for favor from Warfronts and open world PvP, which is essentially the same as what you are saying (a player without PvP equipment vs. a player with PvP equipment). However, taken from my original thread -

    "Most serious PvP players do not play for the ingame rewards. They play for the rush, competition, ratings, teamplay, and amazing feel of that close win. Arena gives a style of gameplay that cannot be equaled by large scale PvP. We all agree that giving only vanity rewards and titles is fine."
    I dont think all would agree that vanity rewards and titles would be enough. Some would perhaps do arena/rated PvP anyway. But a lot of serious competition PvP:ers would expect and want better rewards.

    Most arena PvP:ers are certainly not only playing because they want the rewards. But it is important anyway. The same is true if you are a hardcore raider. Most of them think its fun to raid. But would still think it was very wrong and that it would ruin the fun if you could get the same items doing solo quests.

  10. #10
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by rughark View Post
    I dont think all would agree that vanity rewards and titles would be enough. Some would perhaps do arena/rated PvP anyway. But a lot of serious competition PvP:ers would expect and want better rewards.

    Most arena PvP:ers are certainly not only playing because they want the rewards. But it is important anyway. The same is true if you are a hardcore raider. Most of them think its fun to raid. But would still think it was very wrong and that it would ruin the fun if you could get the same items doing solo quests.
    no this is why people think its a bad idea for ladder system

    the ranking alone is enough. just give it the same or less rewards as warfronts but make it ranked



    any1 that claims to be a pvper and then doesnt want another way to pvp is an idiot. real pvpers love world pvp, instances, AND ranked. they may like one more than others but adding pvp options/content to a game should excite real pvpers not make them scared and whiny

  11. #11
    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by rughark View Post
    I dont think all would agree that vanity rewards and titles would be enough. Some would perhaps do arena/rated PvP anyway. But a lot of serious competition PvP:ers would expect and want better rewards.

    Most arena PvP:ers are certainly not only playing because they want the rewards. But it is important anyway. The same is true if you are a hardcore raider. Most of them think its fun to raid. But would still think it was very wrong and that it would ruin the fun if you could get the same items doing solo quests.
    It's true what you are saying. Although they should add Arena with no rewards at all. Not even try balance arena just add it as a little part of the game that you can do for fun.

  12. #12
    Soulwalker
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    [QUOTE=Schio;1528545]It's true what you are saying. Although they should add Arena with no rewards at all. Not even try balance arena just add it as a little part of the game that you can do for fun.[/QUOTE]

    in Wow, these were called skirmishes. why they chose to delete this option in cata is beyond me, but thats for a different topic.

    i don't see why rated arenas/bg's would be a bad idea so long as the gear is comparable across the board with the only differences being aesthetic. perhaps a visible glow radiating from the high-ranked pvp'er? i would agree, to an extent, that more potent gear rewards for higher rankings would be detrimental, however i dont think its quite as bad as a lot of people make it out to be.

    the one idea that unbalanced high-end arenas was the permittance of top-tier raid gear coupled with select pieces of pvp gear (i.e. human casters with their racials + 2 top-end raid trinkets). blizz addressed both issues (globalling a target and top-end raid gear utilized in pvp) in cata, for the most part. if trion does something similar, such as limiting available gear in a pvp setting to strictly pvp gear, as well as maybe increasing hp on pvp gear if needed, then maybe they wont have to tweak a lot of abilities (which would inevitably create an imbalance for a few classes and overbuff others).

    whatever the case, the devs at trion did their research on successful MMOs and implemented the successful tactics while avoiding ideas that probably would've caused a lot of nerd rage. so far, the game seems pretty solid with a lot of good reviews. i'm pretty sure these devs will do their best in ensuring pvp AND pve stay separate and balanced to the best of their abilities.

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    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by anomalous View Post
    the one idea that unbalanced high-end arenas was the permittance of top-tier raid gear coupled with select pieces of pvp gear (i.e. human casters with their racials + 2 top-end raid trinkets). blizz addressed both issues (globalling a target and top-end raid gear utilized in pvp) in cata, for the most part. if trion does something similar, such as limiting available gear in a pvp setting to strictly pvp gear, as well as maybe increasing hp on pvp gear if needed, then maybe they wont have to tweak a lot of abilities (which would inevitably create an imbalance for a few classes and overbuff others).
    I agree with this. If Trion separates the gear well enough. At the moment it seems like they didn't seperate it enough as a full rank 5/6 PvP set only gives you around 12% dmg reduction from players, which hardly makes a difference in whether players will play PvP with their PvE armour, (or vice versa).

  14. #14
    Shield of Telara Slowjack's Avatar
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    All of the OP is pretty theoretical... seemingly to provide reasons for arena and ratings.


    1: What reason do I have to run around in the open world at level 50?

    Instances: For what? Certainly not exp, and probably not even gear since the stats aren't PvP oriented (ie, more endurance).
    Gathering: For what? My gear comes from PvP. Consumables? ... let's not even begin discussing consumables in such a closed and small scale environment.

    If all you care about is PvP, there is no reason to be out in the open world when you can sit in a city and queue. You'll then get points and ratings which are your sole means of progression whether it be to the top of the leader boards, or for the gear that will get you there.

    So yes, providing an easy way out does kill world PvP.

    2a: A large part of the community is interested in PvP... sure. How large do you think it is? Because if you're basing your opinions on the forums, then you are already using misleading information. I saw you point out "in game"... that's nice. So a bunch of people are having a PvP discussion in one channel, how many people have that channel turned off? Simply aren't participating? Aren't even paying attention because they're having fun in their instance?

    Probably a lot more than you think.

    Unless a MMO markets itself as a PvP MMO the PvP crowd has always been in the minority. That's why PvE has the priority. Rift is no different.


    2b: Do you really want PvP souls to play a prominent role in balancing? Do you really want the meta to become, "You must have x spec, or you will fail."? Because Rift's meta hasn't quite reached that point, however if PvP souls become the PvP balancing tool, then it would reach that point pretty damn quick.

    Using PvP souls as the PvP balancing tool nullifies the soul system entirely. Yes, I do say entirely, because your neat/quirky/cool/interesting build will mean nothing if it does not have x points in PvP soul 1 and (even worse) y points in PvP soul 2.


    3:

    Quote Originally Posted by Laci
    Most serious PvP players do not play for the ingame rewards. They play for the rush, competition, ratings, teamplay, and amazing feel of that close win.
    I have a very huge bone to pick with this. If they play for all of those intangible things, then why does the min/max build or min/max team comp always rise to to the top and see more play than anything else?

    It's like people using the same 9 characters in Marvel vs Capcom 2 because they have infinite combos while the other 47 characters are generally laughed at. Which isn't to say that a trio from the 47 can't beat a trio from the 9, but at the end of the day those 9 are considered the most viable competitive picks.

    Just like... for example... RMP in WoW.

    So no, I'm going to have to disagree... "Most serious PvP players" play to either reach the top of the ladder or to get the best stuff. Winning is what matters. Doesn't really matter if the spec/team comp is over played or FotM. Doesn't really matter at all.

    "We all agree..." ... I can think of people who are very interested in titles and the like, who would disagree with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laci
    Arena gives a style of gameplay that cannot be equaled by large scale PvP.
    Yes, it's called small scale PvP. You do not need Arena to achieve this.

    3b: You sit there and talk about fair as if the playing field is anywhere near the same.

    A raid boss will never, under any circumstances, throw a match. A raid boss will never have less stats than they're designed to. A raid boss will never "forget" to use the few skills given to them. And on and on.

    Players will throw a match if it's to their advantage. Whether it be sitting at the spawn and waiting for a warfront to be over because they're probably gonna lose anyway, or trading wins with the other team because it means both sides will get their points and stuff faster. Buffs and debuffs account for a lot, the gear that a character is wearing accounts for a lot. Individual skill counts for a lot. And even then, team comp probably means more than everything else...

    Do you really think the current state of the game is going to see Mages in competitive play? Maybe a Dominator, but what of the Mage's 7 other souls? That Mage is there to squirrel people, nothing more. If that Mage gets jumped on (which they will, because the other team will know they are there to squirrel) then it is all of a sudden 3v2, or 5v4, or whatever you want to call it.

    PvE: Static.
    PvP: Variable.

    And sure, it could be said that variable is more of a challenge than fighting the same boss encounter week after week. But from a developer's perspective, are you going to dish out rewards for things you can control? Or are you going to just leave the rewards up like a pinata while knowing some kids are going to swing with aluminum bats while others swing with sticks?

    They are not equal.

    Seeing them as such is not closed minded.

    PvE and PvP are a lot like applies and oranges.


    4: You can say whatever you'd like about the role Arenas play in the current state of WoW. You can even say whatever you'd like about the development team's inability to balance the game with scalpels rather than cleavers.

    Fact of the matter is, with the way MMO companies balance their games (I have yet to see one that balances things in small measures) something that points out glaring balance issues is probably something that should be avoided.


    5: What is all this nonsense about casual? If you want to do nothing but PvP all day, Trion is not stopping you. Yes, you can only queue for a warfront with 5 people... but those same 5 can also PvP all day. On top of that, you have 5 coordinated people who guard/initiate warfront objectives... chances are they'll win more often than not.

    If you think some instanced box is the only way to find PvP, or more instanced boxes being the solution to more "hardcore" (lol) PvP... then I'm not sure you're all that serious about PvP in the first place.

    Arenas and Rated Warfronts are more serious!

    ... uh huh...

    ... why so serious?
    Last edited by Slowjack; 03-06-2011 at 08:22 AM.



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  15. #15
    Ascendant Chase Payne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laci View Post
    The major arguments against implementing arenas are:

    Open world PvP will cease to exist. -

    Players leveling see the opposite faction consistently. There are no ways of transport other than walking, and porticulums directly to towns, which forces players to walk through the open world, open for attack. PvP guilds constantly attack towns and leveling areas of the opposite faction as guild events. Regardless of small groups of players doing warfronts and/or arena, the remaining players are constantly open for PvP attacks in the open world.

    Classes will be balanced around PvP instead of PvE. -

    First off, I would like to state that a very large part of the community is focused on PvP play. This is shown by the huge support for PvP servers, open PvP, and warfronts, which are all ingame and discussed constantly. I cannot stress enough how many players are actively playing Rift for the PvP aspect of the game. There is absolutely no reason that PvE should be prioritized over PvP, or that PvP gameplay should be restricted to only casual play.

    Secondly, Trion already has a great system in place to balance PvP without affecting PvE in any way. They are called PvP souls. With these souls, Trion is able to entirely change and balance classes for PvP in these souls for large and small scale situations. More PvP souls could be added, they could be required, they could be only active in Arena and warfronts - there are so many ways to make PvP and PvE balance separate with content that is already in place.

    Arena would give rewards, which is unfair for other players. -

    Most serious PvP players do not play for the ingame rewards. They play for the rush, competition, ratings, teamplay, and amazing feel of that close win. Arena gives a style of gameplay that cannot be equaled by large scale PvP. We all agree that giving only vanity rewards and titles is fine.

    However, I don't think I can stress enough how close minded it is to think that being able to get meaningful rewards from PvP is any less fair than it is for PvE players to be able to complete a raid and receive high end equipment. There are some great suggestions for Warfronts (specifically one that really stood out to me) that would entirely eliminate leechers and AFKers, essentially creating a controlled way for players to play PvP in the same ways that players are already able to play PvE, with the same availability of rewards in a very fair way.

    Arena ruined PvP in WoW. -

    Rated arenas expose blatant balance issues. In World of Warcraft, they resorted to huge nerfs and unreasonable and unneeded buffs to classes, along with constantly changing the entire playstyle of others. This has been happening more often during later arena seasons. This was a major reason that players were frustrated with the class balance in WoW. The class system in WoW is not flexible in any way, and they do not have any content in place to either separate PvE and PvP skills or talents. WoW was not ruined from Arena, it was ruined from their inability to balance PvP separately from PvE, which Rift has a solution for.

    Premades vs PuGs is unfair for casual players? -

    Players that want to play Rift for the PvP aspect of the game are forced to play casually, and with random players. This is like telling a hardcore PvE player that they can only do dungeons, or complete a raid with 5 chosen players, and the rest must be random, so that the random and casual players will be able to have access to the PvE raiding gear.
    Open World PvP was killed by battlegrounds, not arena. The problem was there was no incentive to do world PvP once battlegrounds came out. The people who were interested in doing world PvP were slapped in the face when most of the people were standing in town, so there was nothing to kill. A lot of the players just sat in town queue'ing for battlegrounds because it provided the best rewards for a quick amount of time. Arenas never killed PvP nor world PvP because most players didn't participate in it. Instead, they all waited fro the next season to get new BG gear.

    Arena was never balanced around PvP, instead most of the nerfs were actually PvE nerfs or harmless nerfs such as -15% against frozen targets which doesn't hurt PvE.

    I'd also like to point out that the most serious players couldn't give a **** about the rewards, the reason why they liked arena is because of the matchmaking system making you face other SKILLED players rather than some idiot. There was a point in arena whee you were so good, gear just didn't matter... it came to you every season.

    If anything, the idiots that cried in battlegrounds caused more nerfs than arena could ever imagine... see feral druids/ret paladins, etc.
    Last edited by Chase Payne; 03-06-2011 at 08:31 AM.
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