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Thread: Class Balancing and You! (You being directed at a new MMO dev team)

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Class Balancing and You! (You being directed at a new MMO dev team)

    Class Balancing is a very important part of any MMO. Often times its actually more important than fixing that bug that makes a boss 1 shot a tank 1 out of every 1000 attempts on it. Or that issue with the raid frames dancing all over your screen.

    The reason why class balancing is so important if not indeed the most important part of an MMO is because this is the greatest factor into weather a player has fun in your game. When 1/4 or 1/2 of the classes in your game feel underwhelming or indeed completely inferior to others after they have spent a week leveling said character that doesn't drive them to usually want to spend all that time rerolling (though this some times does happen) it drives them to quitting your game.

    One shot mechanics in any MMO are a big no no. I dont care if someone has to focus me for 30 minutes before they are able to use that 1 shot ability. Its still obscene and should not be permitted.


    The squishiest classes in the game should either be the highest heals or highest sustained/burst damage in the game (this is your mages) while your least squishy classes in the game should be the lowest heals/damage in the game. Your grey area classes should be just that grey across the board. I don't care what your player base QQs about this being done saying this is melding the classes into the same play style. This is balancing, this is needed or you will find yourself without a job because you failed to turn a profit with your game because you repeated the mistakes of other failed MMOs.

    I just hope that you truely grasp how important proof that your going to fix these issues is shown long before the first month of gameplay expires. If you do not make a HUGE effort towards this within the next few weeks your going to lose a huge chunk of your player base. I'm saying this because its happened to every other MMO that has ignored class balancing in their first month. Look at the list. DCUO, WAR, AOC, DAoC, Vanguard. All of these games failed in one way or another due to class imbalances. Obviously there were other reasons these big titles fell as well but the class imbalances were one of the major contributors in each of these cases.



    Long story short Balance or Die! I've posted this on everyone of the MMOs above when they launched and sacrificed the majority of their player base because of the same reason. Maybe you'll be the company to take it to heart and actually listen to its player base?

  2. #2
    Champion of Telara xeshaka's Avatar
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    How do you propose the devs balance 4 archtypes, with 9 class options each that can all be interchanged? It's just not gonna happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Effi View Post
    I have seen the desecrations they have done, the murders they have wrought, and it can be no sin to be the hand of justice.

  3. #3
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    Difficulty of Balance is directly proportional to the complexity of the customization system.

    With Rift's unique and interesting soul system it is the most complex customization system to come out in an MMO thus far.

    The reality is that balance in this game is going to be impossible. I'm not saying that Trion's dev team is incapable of it, simply that it can not be done. There are way, way, way too many soul combinations and abilities to be able to balance against one another in a dynamic player environment.

    I'm a PvPer. I came into this game knowing balance would be impossible. My fellow PvPers will enjoy this game a lot more if they realize that as well.

    If we're extremely lucky we may see two viable pvp soul combinations per class. That would be impressive.

  4. #4
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    Yeah and more importantly good PVP, I wonder when devs truly realize that good PVP and people are gonna play for long long time. Just take a example of some shooters. They're so simple but people play them for years. Warfronts there isnt enough variety. There should be assault/def all kind of different game modes.
    Last edited by June; 03-04-2011 at 11:37 AM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorobashi View Post
    Class Balancing is a very important part of any MMO. Often times its actually more important than fixing that bug that makes a boss 1 shot a tank 1 out of every 1000 attempts on it. Or that issue with the raid frames dancing all over your screen.

    The reason why class balancing is so important if not indeed the most important part of an MMO is because this is the greatest factor into weather a player has fun in your game. When 1/4 or 1/2 of the classes in your game feel underwhelming or indeed completely inferior to others after they have spent a week leveling said character that doesn't drive them to usually want to spend all that time rerolling (though this some times does happen) it drives them to quitting your game.

    One shot mechanics in any MMO are a big no no. I dont care if someone has to focus me for 30 minutes before they are able to use that 1 shot ability. Its still obscene and should not be permitted.


    The squishiest classes in the game should either be the highest heals or highest sustained/burst damage in the game (this is your mages) while your least squishy classes in the game should be the lowest heals/damage in the game. Your grey area classes should be just that grey across the board. I don't care what your player base QQs about this being done saying this is melding the classes into the same play style. This is balancing, this is needed or you will find yourself without a job because you failed to turn a profit with your game because you repeated the mistakes of other failed MMOs.

    I just hope that you truely grasp how important proof that your going to fix these issues is shown long before the first month of gameplay expires. If you do not make a HUGE effort towards this within the next few weeks your going to lose a huge chunk of your player base. I'm saying this because its happened to every other MMO that has ignored class balancing in their first month. Look at the list. DCUO, WAR, AOC, DAoC, Vanguard. All of these games failed in one way or another due to class imbalances. Obviously there were other reasons these big titles fell as well but the class imbalances were one of the major contributors in each of these cases.



    Long story short Balance or Die! I've posted this on everyone of the MMOs above when they launched and sacrificed the majority of their player base because of the same reason. Maybe you'll be the company to take it to heart and actually listen to its player base?
    This man is smart! Listen to him!

  6. #6
    Plane Touched Reavan's Avatar
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    There will never ever be complete balance, however there are a few stupid things right now that are too much better than everything else- Though i still have faith that they will eventually fix it, its just over a week after head start after all
    NIEA - Nightblade L50

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  7. #7
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reavan View Post
    There will never ever be complete balance, however there are a few stupid things right now that are too much better than everything else- Though i still have faith that they will eventually fix it, its just over a week after head start after all
    Agreed. I think we all know that there will never be a perfect balance but they should at least try to make it as balanced as possible. That is all a honest pvp player is asking.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by xeshaka View Post
    How do you propose the devs balance 4 archtypes, with 9 class options each that can all be interchanged? It's just not gonna happen.
    easy. start with the most broken first. a simple nerf to sabs would shut up a huge chunk of the player base. also either giving mages real damaging spells over these so called attacks that hit for a whole 500 crit.

    Give Chloromancer a real heal that isnt on a 10 second cooldown, nerf down warrior dps so it isnt running around 3 shotting everything. in other words they need to do a nerf across the board on most damages. save a few such as those in the mage soul they need to buff a few of the healing souls though some need nerfed.

    You act like somthing like this is hard because they have what. 36 classes? but in reality. its not as challenging as you think. Look at a game like WoW it has 30 "classes" as far as this game is concerned. In my opinion this game has 4 classes with 9 specs each. because each one has very limited choice options in each of their talent trees. and if you want to get your final ability at the end you have to point into almost every talent in that tree anyways.

    So dont play that "zomg they has so many classes" card because they may have alot of classes but they're each very shallow.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asyrin View Post
    Difficulty of Balance is directly proportional to the complexity of the customization system.

    With Rift's unique and interesting soul system it is the most complex customization system to come out in an MMO thus far.

    The reality is that balance in this game is going to be impossible. I'm not saying that Trion's dev team is incapable of it, simply that it can not be done. There are way, way, way too many soul combinations and abilities to be able to balance against one another in a dynamic player environment.

    I'm a PvPer. I came into this game knowing balance would be impossible. My fellow PvPers will enjoy this game a lot more if they realize that as well.

    If we're extremely lucky we may see two viable pvp soul combinations per class. That would be impressive.

    tweeking souls so that they are not I win classes though is mandatory or this game will fail. they need to fix several of the souls. Be it buff them exponentially or nerf them into the ground. The fact stands that there are extreme imbalances in this game that make several souls completely 100% worthless in PvP while others are clearly the best choice for PvP over all others.
    Last edited by Yorobashi; 03-04-2011 at 12:19 PM.

  10. #10
    Champion of Telara xeshaka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorobashi View Post
    easy. start with the most broken first. a simple nerf to sabs would shut up a huge chunk of the player base. also either giving mages real damaging spells over these so called attacks that hit for a whole 500 crit.

    Give Chloromancer a real heal that isnt on a 10 second cooldown, nerf down warrior dps so it isnt running around 3 shotting everything. in other words they need to do a nerf across the board on most damages. save a few such as those in the mage soul they need to buff a few of the healing souls though some need nerfed.

    You act like somthing like this is hard because they have what. 36 classes? but in reality. its not as challenging as you think. Look at a game like WoW it has 30 "classes" as far as this game is concerned. In my opinion this game has 4 classes with 9 specs each. because each one has very limited choice options in each of their talent trees. and if you want to get your final ability at the end you have to point into almost every talent in that tree anyways.

    So dont play that "zomg they has so many classes" card because they may have alot of classes but they're each very shallow.
    Are you implying that WoW has balanced pvp? Lol...
    Quote Originally Posted by Effi View Post
    I have seen the desecrations they have done, the murders they have wrought, and it can be no sin to be the hand of justice.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorobashi View Post
    tweeking souls so that they are not I win classes though is mandatory or this game will fail. they need to fix several of the souls. Be it buff them exponentially or nerf them into the ground. The fact stands that there are extreme imbalances in this game that make several souls completely 100% worthless in PvP while others are clearly the best choice for PvP over all others.
    Perfectly stated, but it seems that for every mage complaining there is 2 warriors telling them to l2p, I 3shot you because im more skilled.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by xeshaka View Post
    Are you implying that WoW has balanced pvp? Lol...
    Actually yes WoW is very balanced in terms of PvP. 1v1 and group PvP (with the appropriate gear) there are no instances in the game where one class trumps all or most other classes. There are cases where some classes fall short of the others but blizzard is very good at bringing balance to their game.

    Having played in the 2300 brackets since TBC and i can say with certainty there has never been a time that any one class was OP in my eyes. Granted every class has that ability that makes me go FML! but nothing to the extent that i couldnt work around with intelligent game play. (There have been times where some classes had a slight advantage on most but blizz beat them into the dirt quiet quickly a lot of times with hot fixes. So those occasions do not apply)


    However. I was not getting to that point with that comment. I was stating that this game doesnt have 36 classes. it has 4 classes with 9 specs each. as WoW has 10 classes with 3 specs each. 10 classes with 3 specs each is MUCH harder to balance than 4 classes with 9 specs each. you just break the majority of your specs for PvP in each class to force certain specs for pvp and others for PvE. in rift they could do this by adding massive ammounts of player source dmg midigation deep in certain trees. Allow it to be accessed as an off spec as well. this forces players to want to take 2 souls to get double the damage midigation vs only being in one soul for the midigation and going another for extreme dmg/healing.

    I know thats a crappy way of doing things but hey. Until they can figure out a way to bring pseudo balance to other classes I honestly feel that would be one of the best approaches.



    Quote Originally Posted by Phrostt View Post
    Perfectly stated, but it seems that for every mage complaining there is 2 warriors telling them to l2p, I 3shot you because im more skilled.

    or a rogue saying "lulz cleanse moar". They're either trolling or idiots. Either way I ignore them.
    Last edited by Yorobashi; 03-04-2011 at 12:43 PM.

  13. #13
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    There is no such thing as complete balance. When we call for balance, we want classes to be able to compete with each other fully. This means a warrior can fight a rogue or mage 1v1 and while they have different playstyles, different survivability, and different damage, with equal skill they would kill each other at approximately the same time. This is not boring. This is taking all other variables as the same, and only changing the class variable, and seeing that those 2 class variables are balanced, so that other variables will determine the win.

    I do not want my class to decide if I win or lose. I want all classes to have different skills, range, visibility, survivablity, cc, mobility, health, reactive abilities and self healing. I want every class to be chosen for their style. What they can do in certain situations. Not the fact that it can always kill another class 1v1. I do not want to ever see any class be able to kill another class regardless of what they do because it is their 'counter'. You can be slightly more powerful against your counter class, but you absolutely should not be able to be carried so much that you would win no matter how poorly you play.

    Trion has shown blatantly poor balancing and PvP development .
    Last edited by Laci; 03-04-2011 at 11:07 PM.

  14. #14
    Ascendant Lords0fpain's Avatar
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    I think, IF they keep away from overdoing stuns and don't give classes self healing that shouldn't have it, it would go along way in balancing. In others words, don't give plate wearing classes stuns (or not some classes the ability to escape them) and better self healing (which should not have it to start with) than other classes that wear inferior armor. I come from another game that did this and ppl are leaving in droves...
    Last edited by Lords0fpain; 03-05-2011 at 12:43 AM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorobashi View Post
    Actually yes WoW is very balanced in terms of PvP. 1v1 and group PvP (with the appropriate gear) there are no instances in the game where one class trumps all or most other classes. There are cases where some classes fall short of the others but blizzard is very good at bringing balance to their game.

    Having played in the 2300 brackets since TBC and i can say with certainty there has never been a time that any one class was OP in my eyes. Granted every class has that ability that makes me go FML! but nothing to the extent that i couldnt work around with intelligent game play. (There have been times where some classes had a slight advantage on most but blizz beat them into the dirt quiet quickly a lot of times with hot fixes. So those occasions do not apply)


    However. I was not getting to that point with that comment. I was stating that this game doesnt have 36 classes. it has 4 classes with 9 specs each. as WoW has 10 classes with 3 specs each. 10 classes with 3 specs each is MUCH harder to balance than 4 classes with 9 specs each. you just break the majority of your specs for PvP in each class to force certain specs for pvp and others for PvE. in rift they could do this by adding massive ammounts of player source dmg midigation deep in certain trees. Allow it to be accessed as an off spec as well. this forces players to want to take 2 souls to get double the damage midigation vs only being in one soul for the midigation and going another for extreme dmg/healing.

    I know thats a crappy way of doing things but hey. Until they can figure out a way to bring pseudo balance to other classes I honestly feel that would be one of the best approaches.






    or a rogue saying "lulz cleanse moar". They're either trolling or idiots. Either way I ignore them.

    totally true.

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