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Thread: Raid Design?

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    Rift Disciple Vyndeta's Avatar
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    Unhappy Raid Design?

    So I have already purchased Rift and I am current waiting on my brand spankin new gaming rig to arrive. While I wait I found a roughly 20 minute endgame video posted by Trion on g4tv.com. And I will be honest my initial first impression is... meh.

    Of course I have grown accustomed to WoW raids and the usual instance style with roughly 3-7 bosses. As I am watching the endgame video for Rift I see what appears to be (forgive me for this) a lazy approach to raiding. I love this game from what I experienced in beta but I cringed a little when I saw the raid content. Granted it will take me a bit to hit 50 because I want to explore every aspect of the game but I pray to anyone and anything listening that this is not going to be the only type of raid content Trion releases.

    Let me explain for those reading that haven't seen the video. There are basically 2 types of raids currently. 10 man "rift raids" and 20 man "instanced raids". The rift raids are cool and rather refreshing, and I believe it was said that there are going to be 5 different raid rifts available at launch. These I am all for no objection here from me.

    On the other hand, the instanced raid looked underwhelming. The level design looks bland and (forgive me again) lazy. The whole raid takes place in a huge cave, and it gets "phased" after each boss kill giving you a different hedge maze to run through. Rift is a fantastic game but I am starting to think the endgame content didn't get as much attention as it needed. I know all of these statements seem harsh but the MMO industry is a demanding one now unfortunately and I have been jaded by huge massive raid designs and intricate boss fights. I can only hope and pray that future raids will have a bigger venue and a little more flavor. Lastly... the instanced raids are only 20 man, I know that is ok for most but I like my little 10 man cliques, hopefully Trion sees this as an opportunity and will get this fixed. I don't care if 20 mans and 10 mans are identical with only adjusted health and damage levels, just give those that like the idea of 10-man raiding a choice.

    Overall the game is phenomenal and I can't wait for my new rig to get in so I can start. Please take this for what it is, opinion/fact. I gave facts on what content is "in game" right now and my thoughts as a 10 man kinda guy. Thanks for reading, post away.
    Last edited by Vyndeta; 02-27-2011 at 08:24 PM.

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    Prophet of Telara mtndew's Avatar
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    I really liked it and I can't wait.

    If you paid attention to what he was saying while showing us the 20 man, he said he didn't want to ruin any surprises and obviously skipped the exciting parts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyndeta View Post
    So I have already purchased Rift and I am current waiting on my brand spankin new gaming rig to arrive. While I wait I found a roughly 20 minute endgame video posted by Trion on g4tv.com. And I will be honest my initial first impression is... meh.

    Of course I have grown accustomed to WoW raids and the usual instance style with roughly 3-7 bosses. As I am watching the endgame video for Rift I see what appears to be (forgive me for this) a lazy approach to raiding. I love this game from what I experienced in beta but I cringed a little when I saw the raid content. Granted it will take me a bit to hit 50 because I want to explore every aspect of the game but I pray to anyone and anything listening that this is not going to be the only type of raid content Trion releases.

    Let me explain for those reading that haven't seen the video. There are basically 2 types of raids currently. 10 man "rift raids" and 20 man "instanced raids". The rift raids are cool and rather refreshing, and I believe it was said that there are going to be 5 different raid rifts available at launch. These I am all for no objection here from me.

    On the other hand, the instanced raid looked underwhelming. The level design looks bland and (forgive me again) lazy. The whole raid takes place in a huge cave, and it gets "phased" after each boss kill giving you a different hedge maze to run through. Rift is a fantastic game but I am starting to think the endgame content didn't get as much attention as it needed. I know all of these statements seem harsh but the MMO industry is a demanding one now unfortunately and I have been jaded by huge massive raid designs and intricate boss fights. I can only hope and pray that future raids will have a bigger venue and a little more flavor. Lastly... the instanced raids are only 20 man, I know that is ok for most but I like my little 10 man cliques, hopefully Trion sees this as an opportunity and will get this fixed. I don't care if 20 mans and 10 mans are identical with only adjusted health and damage levels, just give those that like the idea of 10-man raiding a choice.

    Overall the game is phenomenal and I can't wait for my new rig to get in so I can start. Please take this for what it is, opinion/fact. I gave facts on what content is "in game" right now and my thoughts as a 10 man kinda guy. Thanks for reading, post away.
    You should do some more research before posting something like this. The next instance is already done and has twice the number of bosses and is huge. Hammerknell. That one will be unlockable. Timetable for Hammerknell's release is supposed to be less than a month after launch. So I wouldn't worry to much. Greenscale may be small but it will keep you busy long enough and you need to gear up through it and the rift raids since Hammerknell is Tier 2 of raiding. What I'm not clear on is how rift raids fit into raid progression. Are they the same as Greenscale? Will raid rifts have progression tiers as more are added (they have already said more are coming). Still I think you are way to early to be making these sort of snap judgements. I know you aren't trolling, but if you are going to make a statement you should do some research about whats coming before making assumptions.

    Rift got more attention to endgame than any MMO previously released ever. WoW I can't remember if Molten Core was even playable when it shipped. And that was it..for quite awhile. Many games didn't ship with any endgame content, it was added later. In terms of raid content anyways. You have to consider any level 50 dungeons and the first 2 tiers of expert dungeons + expert rifts as well because you need to complete those to even attempt the raids. Even the 10 man rift raids.

    You also have no idea what the mechanics are on the boss fights. From the alpha tester I have talked to the final boss in Greenscale (Greenscale) is insanely tough. You are just making way to many assumptions here. I don't mean to flame you, and I'm not trying to, but this post was very ill advised and ill informed. Its simply way to early to make any sort of judgement on the endgame.

    As for the 10 man raids. I think they will do it very soon. I get the feeling (and they never said this outright so I may be wrong) that they were afraid they wouldn't be able to get a 10 and 20 man version of Greenscale done in time so they created some slightly smaller scale encounters designed especially for 10 mans. I think it was a very smart move. They had to ship with some sort of raid content, its expected in an MMO now. Give them time to do Greenscale right.

    There is also a third instance that may come out before Hammerknell that is smaller but its name and content is a mystery but its apparently fairly far along in development. So I think the hope on Trion's part is to have 3 20 man instances (the mystery and greenscale will be tier 1 and hammerknell tier 2) in place within a month or so after launch. If they pull that off, they will have done better than any MMO as far as raid content so early in the game's life. Trion has given us pretty much no reason to doubt them, so we need to sit back and enjoy the ride and see what comes.
    Last edited by Khelendross; 02-27-2011 at 11:36 PM.

  4. #4
    Plane Touched Erisad's Avatar
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    Can someone please post a link to the said video? My google skills are insufficient to find it

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    Plane Touched Erisad's Avatar
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    Thanks for the link.

    I have to side with the opposition to OP. I see variety, challenge and requirements for strong teamwork - three things necessary to make endgame raiding work. I believe the developer left it open-ended for a reason, and perceiving it as boring and unexciting is... shortsighted. Didn't we want a game with more possibilities? Well there we go, flexible reward system, shifting mazes, public groups and raids
    And ultimately we will not know if its good or bad endgame until we get there.

  7. #7
    Rift Disciple Vyndeta's Avatar
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    You should do some more research before posting something like this. The next instance is already done and has twice the number of bosses and is huge. Hammerknell. That one will be unlockable. Timetable for Hammerknell's release is supposed to be less than a month after launch. So I wouldn't worry to much. Greenscale may be small but it will keep you busy long enough and you need to gear up through it and the rift raids since Hammerknell is Tier 2 of raiding. What I'm not clear on is how rift raids fit into raid progression. Are they the same as Greenscale? Will raid rifts have progression tiers as more are added (they have already said more are coming). Still I think you are way to early to be making these sort of snap judgements. I know you aren't trolling, but if you are going to make a statement you should do some research about whats coming before making assumptions.

    Rift got more attention to endgame than any MMO previously released ever. WoW I can't remember if Molten Core was even playable when it shipped. And that was it..for quite awhile. Many games didn't ship with any endgame content, it was added later. In terms of raid content anyways. You have to consider any level 50 dungeons and the first 2 tiers of expert dungeons + expert rifts as well because you need to complete those to even attempt the raids. Even the 10 man rift raids.

    You also have no idea what the mechanics are on the boss fights. From the alpha tester I have talked to the final boss in Greenscale (Greenscale) is insanely tough. You are just making way to many assumptions here. I don't mean to flame you, and I'm not trying to, but this post was very ill advised and ill informed. Its simply way to early to make any sort of judgement on the endgame.

    As for the 10 man raids. I think they will do it very soon. I get the feeling (and they never said this outright so I may be wrong) that they were afraid they wouldn't be able to get a 10 and 20 man version of Greenscale done in time so they created some slightly smaller scale encounters designed especially for 10 mans. I think it was a very smart move. They had to ship with some sort of raid content, its expected in an MMO now. Give them time to do Greenscale right.

    There is also a third instance that may come out before Hammerknell that is smaller but its name and content is a mystery but its apparently fairly far along in development. So I think the hope on Trion's part is to have 3 20 man instances (the mystery and greenscale will be tier 1 and hammerknell tier 2) in place within a month or so after launch. If they pull that off, they will have done better than any MMO as far as raid content so early in the game's life. Trion has given us pretty much no reason to doubt them, so we need to sit back and enjoy the ride and see what comes.
    Touche sir, I had heard alittle about Hemmerknell in a few podcasts but I hadn't heard anything about the design of the instance. I guess my opinion was purely based off what is in game right now.

    I completely agree with you on your statement about most MMOs lacking sufficient endgame content at launch. And to a degree I expected as much. But I feel Rift has set its bar pretty high with all the hype they have built. I just want to see Trion succeed, I am literally rooting for them to make this game a be all end all. I am in the process of getting my guild to transition over and most are asking about the endgame content, unfortunately I am not meeting their query with a lot of definitive answers.

    I also recall Trion mentioning something about the instanced raiding being only 20 man style for now and I am just posting in the hopes that someone from Trion realizes the "for now" statement needs to not stretch a long time span. If its development time they need then so be it, but the game needs 10 man instanced raiding. I feel like a black sheep raider being limited to only Rift raiding. Though some would agree with that statement, I know that I'm not alone.

    All in all thanks for reminding me of the Hammerknell content I honestly had forgotten about that.
    Last edited by Vyndeta; 02-28-2011 at 08:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyndeta View Post
    Touche sir, I had heard alittle about Hemmerknell in a few podcasts but I hadn't heard anything about the design of the instance. I guess my opinion was purely based off what is in game right now.

    I completely agree with you on your statement about most MMOs lacking sufficient endgame content at launch. And to a degree I expected as much. But I feel Rift has set its bar pretty high with all the hype they have built. I just want to see Trion succeed, I am literally rooting for them to make this game a be all end all. I am in the process of getting my guild to transition over and most are asking about the endgame content, unfortunately I am not meeting their query with a lot of definitive answers.

    I also recall Trion mentioning something about the instanced raiding being only 20 man style for now and I am just posting in the hopes that someone from Trion realizes the "for now" statement needs to not stretch a long time span. If its development time they need then so be it, but the game needs 10 man instanced raiding. I feel like a black sheep raider being limited to only Rift raiding. Though some would agree with that statement, I know that I'm not alone.

    All in all thanks for reminding me of the Hammerknell content I honestly had forgotten about that.
    NP, and I do agree about the need for instanced 10 man raiding but I really do believe it will come, its just a matter of them wanting to make sure they had adequate content for launch.

    Time will obviously tell but I think we still have a couple weeks before we see any raids of any sort being attempted but from what I have heard even about the expert dungeons, I can't imagine raiding will be a fail in any way. Hell I don't know if I will even be 50 in a couple weeks. I'm close to 20 now and granted I didn't end up having as much time to play during headstart as I hoped but I'm also taking it slow and doing alot of exploring (getitng the puzzles and what not).

    One of my biggest concerns about 10 man raiding rifts (great idea for sure) is that it may be possible to screw things up for guilds attempting them if they are very intensive. By this I mean that if some guy happens along and decides he wants to "help" without knowing the mechanics he could easily wipe the raid even if he doesn't mean to. I really hope people on PVE servers are kind enough to ask before they jump in on these fights cause if they are complex and intricate encounters I can forsee open participation being a problem. I'm also fairly interested in expert rifts. I haven't seen anyone talking about these yet so I am not sure how they will work. Are they naturally occuring? Do you create them like raid rifts?

  9. #9
    Rift Disciple Chaddada's Avatar
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    Yeah hopefully we see 10 man raiding in here as well. I know the 10/20 man options can be harder to balance but I think it would be a great idea to have both available so guilds can decide on how large (or small) they want to be.

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