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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Suggestion For Clarity on Exploiting/Exploits

  1. #1
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    Default Suggestion For Clarity on Exploiting/Exploits

    So, I've never actually posted to the forums before, but with this recent development regarding exploits, I have felt the need to post. Exploits are something I feel strongly about, not because I am fundamentally for/against them or anything, but simply about the way they are handled within this game.

    I am of the personal belief that any player taking advantage of something available to them within the base, un-hacked game should not be met with punitive action, but the flaw in question should be met with timely fixes to the problem to ensure it does not happen again. However, in this NA/EU first, Shard first-centric environment we play in, some ground rules are necessary. And I can accept that. What I cannot accept, however, is how grey an area these exploits seem to exist in right now.

    But how can we make exploits black and white? It's rather simple, really. Make a list. Make a master list of all exploits on these forums, for everyone in the progression guilds these rules actually matter to to see. If an action is not on the exploit master list, no disciplinary action can be taken against a player(s) for said action. If the powers that be want the player base to not exploit, update the master list accordingly. Once on the list, it becomes a bannable offense.

    With a master list in place, there would be no more he says / she says, no more special treatment, no more conflicting messages from different individuals regarding the acceptability of certain actions. There would be a set of iron-clad, dev-controlled rules to follow, and we would follow them. Like laws in the real world (a crazy concept, I know).

    Obviously, the concern is with progression and guilds using these exploits to clinch first-kill achievements. The answer is, from my point of view, also pretty simple. If a guild is found using an exploit that has not yet made its way to the master list, the master list would be updated, then the guild responsible would have their kills removed from the leaderboard. No bans, no retroactive loot removal, just the loss of their status. Because in the end, that's why this issue seems to matter so much anyway.

    So, am I crazy here? I'm genuinely curious to find out, so input is more than welcomed

    PS: I'm not in any of the guilds this has affected, but I am a raider so I would like to think I have a say in the matter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boxsmith View Post
    So, I've never actually posted to the forums before, but with this recent development regarding exploits, I have felt the need to post. Exploits are something I feel strongly about, not because I am fundamentally for/against them or anything, but simply about the way they are handled within this game.

    I am of the personal belief that any player taking advantage of something available to them within the base, un-hacked game should not be met with punitive action, but the flaw in question should be met with timely fixes to the problem to ensure it does not happen again. However, in this NA/EU first, Shard first-centric environment we play in, some ground rules are necessary. And I can accept that. What I cannot accept, however, is how grey an area these exploits seem to exist in right now.

    But how can we make exploits black and white? It's rather simple, really. Make a list. Make a master list of all exploits on these forums, for everyone in the progression guilds these rules actually matter to to see. If an action is not on the exploit master list, no disciplinary action can be taken against a player(s) for said action. If the powers that be want the player base to not exploit, update the master list accordingly. Once on the list, it becomes a bannable offense.

    With a master list in place, there would be no more he says / she says, no more special treatment, no more conflicting messages from different individuals regarding the acceptability of certain actions. There would be a set of iron-clad, dev-controlled rules to follow, and we would follow them. Like laws in the real world (a crazy concept, I know).

    Obviously, the concern is with progression and guilds using these exploits to clinch first-kill achievements. The answer is, from my point of view, also pretty simple. If a guild is found using an exploit that has not yet made its way to the master list, the master list would be updated, then the guild responsible would have their kills removed from the leaderboard. No bans, no retroactive loot removal, just the loss of their status. Because in the end, that's why this issue seems to matter so much anyway.

    So, am I crazy here? I'm genuinely curious to find out, so input is more than welcomed

    PS: I'm not in any of the guilds this has affected, but I am a raider so I would like to think I have a say in the matter
    Sounds pretty reasonable.
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    Honestly, I'm not particularly a fan of a public list of exploits, especially with how Trion currently handles them. If when Apoth first killed Anrak, they pulled Anrak outside of the zone to perpetually respawn until Anrak was dead, there's no way Trion would have let it slide, yet now, groups are doing it constantly. If a list like that were to be public, the top guilds would have to do things legitimately meanwhile the rest of the community could utilize the exploits at their hearts' content (see Anrak exploit). A better suggestion would be for Trion to actively fix mechanics that allow for exploits, but I don't see that happening anytime soon..
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    you can stuff your sorry's in a sack, mister.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Artewig View Post
    Honestly, I'm not particularly a fan of a public list of exploits, especially with how Trion currently handles them. If when Apoth first killed Anrak, they pulled Anrak outside of the zone to perpetually respawn until Anrak was dead, there's no way Trion would have let it slide, yet now, groups are doing it constantly. If a list like that were to be public, the top guilds would have to do things legitimately meanwhile the rest of the community could utilize the exploits at their hearts' content (see Anrak exploit). A better suggestion would be for Trion to actively fix mechanics that allow for exploits, but I don't see that happening anytime soon..
    And this is why we can't have nice things.

    In general though, most exploits are pretty clear. The times that we take action are generally one of two cases:

    1) The people involved had been specifically warned not to do something after discovering a potential exploit, and did it anyways before we could get a fix in. This happens distressingly often.

    2) People find a way to completely disable something and do it, usually related to issues that are fundamental to MMOs.


    What's strangely more common is that people assert that something that isn't an exploit is. That may be CC'ing mobs that are intended to be CC'd, when in the past certain mobs were vulnerable to CC that shouldn't have been because of a bug. People sometimes get obsessed with the tactic and not whether or not it was appropriate. Another frequent case of this is when bosses have significantly differing mechanics, that work differently than how we normally do something such as a boss that uses a soft enrage mechanic (requiring a set of conditions to be fulfilled) instead of a hard timer. That tends to confuse people.

    While we can't make an absolute list, I will talk to the Raid team if there is a general set of guidelines we could possibly release. It's a hard task and I'm not promising anything in this regard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    While we can't make an absolute list, I will talk to the Raid team if there is a general set of guidelines we could possibly release. It's a hard task and I'm not promising anything in this regard.
    I would start out by not releasing buggy, exploitable content tier after tier.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aayden View Post
    I would start out by not releasing buggy, exploitable content tier after tier.
    Any content is exploitable in some fashion or another, in any game. The only way to 100% prevent exploits is to not release content. That is not an acceptable solution. It's not the game's fault that people choose to cheat, it's the cheater's fault.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    And this is why we can't have nice things.

    In general though, most exploits are pretty clear. The times that we take action are generally one of two cases:

    1) The people involved had been specifically warned not to do something after discovering a potential exploit, and did it anyways before we could get a fix in. This happens distressingly often.

    2) People find a way to completely disable something and do it, usually related to issues that are fundamental to MMOs.


    What's strangely more common is that people assert that something that isn't an exploit is. That may be CC'ing mobs that are intended to be CC'd, when in the past certain mobs were vulnerable to CC that shouldn't have been because of a bug.
    I don`t know but cc`ing adds which are intended to be cc`ed to be killed or chain cc`ed to ignore them seems okay but if you cc an add one time for a short duration to let them force despawn/deaggro(something a fix should change for the 10% phase on Hericius) via cancelbuff then this sounds pretty much like what you posted under 2) .
    So in future we have to ask if adds are intended to be cc`able and if yes we can disable/abuse them in all ways we find with cc?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Night Dream View Post
    I don`t know but cc`ing adds which are intended to be cc`ed to be killed or chain cc`ed to ignore them seems okay but if you cc an add one time for a short duration to let them force despawn/deaggro(something a fix should change for the 10% phase on Hericius) via cancelbuff then this sounds pretty much like what you posted under 2) .
    So in future we have to ask if adds are intended to be cc`able and if yes we can disable/abuse them in all ways we find with cc?
    A good general start is that if a mob is vulnerable to most or all CC, it's probably intended to be CC'd. If it's only vulnerable to one type of CC (without us saying anything) it's more likely a bug. Not a hard rule, but something to keep in mind.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boxsmith View Post
    So, I've never actually posted to the forums before, but with this recent development regarding exploits, I have felt the need to post. Exploits are something I feel strongly about, not because I am fundamentally for/against them or anything, but simply about the way they are handled within this game.

    I am of the personal belief that any player taking advantage of something available to them within the base, un-hacked game should not be met with punitive action, but the flaw in question should be met with timely fixes to the problem to ensure it does not happen again. However, in this NA/EU first, Shard first-centric environment we play in, some ground rules are necessary. And I can accept that. What I cannot accept, however, is how grey an area these exploits seem to exist in right now.

    But how can we make exploits black and white? It's rather simple, really. Make a list. Make a master list of all exploits on these forums, for everyone in the progression guilds these rules actually matter to to see. If an action is not on the exploit master list, no disciplinary action can be taken against a player(s) for said action. If the powers that be want the player base to not exploit, update the master list accordingly. Once on the list, it becomes a bannable offense.

    With a master list in place, there would be no more he says / she says, no more special treatment, no more conflicting messages from different individuals regarding the acceptability of certain actions. There would be a set of iron-clad, dev-controlled rules to follow, and we would follow them. Like laws in the real world (a crazy concept, I know).

    Obviously, the concern is with progression and guilds using these exploits to clinch first-kill achievements. The answer is, from my point of view, also pretty simple. If a guild is found using an exploit that has not yet made its way to the master list, the master list would be updated, then the guild responsible would have their kills removed from the leaderboard. No bans, no retroactive loot removal, just the loss of their status. Because in the end, that's why this issue seems to matter so much anyway.

    So, am I crazy here? I'm genuinely curious to find out, so input is more than welcomed

    PS: I'm not in any of the guilds this has affected, but I am a raider so I would like to think I have a say in the matter
    I think you give the best reasons against a master list yourself.

    Why should a studio give away its power to decide on a case by case basis to a generic "master list" that people can use against the bosses, the competition, the studio? If people have that list they will try to use the leeway to the max so they just dont have to be afraid of any consequences. Also there would be endless discussions whats included/not included with the list and whats borderline acceptable or not.

    Not to mention that a master list that somehow addresses all possible issues of all current and future bosses beforehand - before they become to light - is just not something that can happen.

    Overall I dont think we have a guideline issue. Even if it may look like it because of the typical "but X did this" and "Y did that" arguments. But tbh I dont buy into any of this. Most of the time when people cross the line, they do it well knowing. "Because we can", "because they didnt fix it", "because X and Y do it as well" or "because the enrage timer cannot be beaten mathematically (so we think)".
    That said it actually can happen - in rare cases - that a guild exploits without knowing that they do. And then they can make their case and the studio then looks into it.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    A good general start is that if a mob is vulnerable to most or all CC, it's probably intended to be CC'd. If it's only vulnerable to one type of CC (without us saying anything) it's more likely a bug. Not a hard rule, but something to keep in mind.
    Okay, but it still not clarify the special situation we have here:
    For example we have a boss which can be cc`ed intended but during that cc I can use clever tactics so that the boss does nothing afterwards until my cc is ready again so that the boss does nothing is an exploit or not?
    That`s practically what we have now there was a fix so the green adds don`t despawn in the 10% phase but you just can cancelbuff to circumvent this fix(and the over 90% of the boss fight there it seems not to be bad because you could just stun them for 5 sec and then become inactive due to deaggro abusing).

    It`s just sad to see that after a fix the exact same thing(by the same people) is still working on this boss just by abusing it in an other way (I know that guilds are treated different but it`s a bit ridiculous at the moment).
    Last edited by Night Dream; 06-02-2016 at 12:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Night Dream View Post
    Okay, but it still not clarify the special situation we have here:
    For example we have a boss which can be cc`ed intended but during that cc I can use clever tactics so that the boss does nothing afterwards until my cc is ready again so that the boss does nothing is an exploit or not?
    That`s practically what we have now there was a fix so the green adds don`t despawn in the 10% phase but you just can cancelbuff to circumvent this fix(and the over 90% of the boss fight there it seems not to be bad because you could just stun them for 5 sec and then become inactive due to deaggro abusing).

    It`s just sad to see that after a fix the exact same thing(by the same people) is still working on this boss just by abusing it in an other way (I know that guilds are treated different but it`s a bit ridiculous at the moment).
    TBH the words you use "clever tactics", "circumvent this fix", "deaggro abusing" make the answer to your question if its an exploit or not a bit too obvious. So that question is a bit loaded and you are not really asking for clarification.

    I think the point you try to make is why can X no longer do this if Y still can do that.
    If you know Rift's history you will eventually notice while it sometimes may look like guild X can get away with something - for a while - its smarter not to push it.

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    Well my 2 cents on the topic:

    - Its Trínos right to decide what is an exploit and what not, sometimes ppl can have different opinions, for me even the safespot on shroom feels borderline.

    -What really shouldnt happen is to let guilds kill something with a questionable method, and instafix it for next reset. It doesnt feel fair, its saying: ok you guys can exploit your trinkets on genesis, or rift prison adds on hericious, but nobody else can after. Its putting people who dont want to even try questionable methods at disadvantage.

    -I really think that Cori considered their kill is legit, or they simply went high from all those shrooms and thought uploading that log as public wont backfire at all.

    -If you want to avoid exploits you should really check the cc and displacement immunity for every mob present in raid, doublecheck their aggro mechanics and maybe finally consider adding a reasonable meele range for raid bosses and mobs, and that includes spells that are meele range on default, i lost count of how many mobs can be abused with that, they cancel cast, try to run after you and restart cast after, just let them finish it at range.

    Edit: i forgot pathing issues, as one of the all time favorite source of exploits, like genesis and his adds have, you can negate those with adding different behaviour also.

    I wouldnt point this out if it wouldnt be these things causing issues every tier. Genesis adds, Enigma on Arak etc.
    Last edited by Tetmes; 06-02-2016 at 02:23 PM.

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    the disturbing thing to me is the size of the raiding community, and how easy it is for trion to turn away from this small group of people. i have a really hard time forking over any money with stuff like this going on. if you are gonna make the leap to punish a group of people, do it to everyone that is doing it, not just a small group of people that you guys clearly have something against.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ongar View Post
    TBH the words you use "clever tactics", "circumvent this fix", "deaggro abusing" make the answer to your question if its an exploit or not a bit too obvious. So that question is a bit loaded and you are not really asking for clarification.

    I think the point you try to make is why can X no longer do this if Y still can do that.
    If you know Rift's history you will eventually notice while it sometimes may look like guild X can get away with something - for a while - its smarter not to push it.
    For me it`s obvious what it is but from Trion`s side there is no real answer yet and guilds are setting standards for kill tactics and if the standard is yeah you can mostly ignore the adds by forcing them to deaggro then it would be nice to know.
    At the moment 4 guilds killed it: Transcendent, Kalimna, Critical Hit and Coriolis.
    Extending the enrage in an unintended way were Coriolis and Critical Hit(I guess because 7:08 is too long even if the boss starts casting his jump wave).
    Forcing deaggro you could see from Kalimna and Coriolis(there is no vid from Critical Hit so can`t say if they did it).
    Guilds who don`t have the dps to kill the boss with the adds will just try to force despawn more than just the green adds so you have up to an effective boss hp reduce by about 15mio(5%).

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