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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Mind of Madness:Dark Genesis and Arisen Arak Disabled 12/21/15

  1. #91
    Shield of Telara trionsaur REX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eaZytheoneandonly View Post
    The adds were attacked intentionally from a person down there to try to prevent that happening, maybe he missed one of them. Non the less a person down there did a great job and had the necessary things available at the time the add spawned and didnt precisely do what was expected and took a small walk instead. Im not only 99%, im 100% sure that the add wasnt longer gone than the time frame in which one can deal with these adds without haveing any problems at all. Other then that it returned at a later point in time which made the persons down there deal with 3 adds at the same time increasing the difficulty on that massively.
    Saying without spoilering the fight nor the used tactics at all: The spawn and short walk of the add at that point of time didnt matter at all, the delayed arrival increased the difficulty instead.
    No they didn't. Almost every try at least 1 add was not getting leashed and we were specifically told to wait for them to come. I mean you of all ppl should know that I pushed multiple times in mage chat to coordinate the CC(which was completely ignored and if you publish combatlogs they will show whether cc rotations happened) and I mentioned the possibility of stun rotations in voice chat as well. (Every successful hit of a Holy Genesis, reduces the victim's max health by 2%)

    The 3 adds up at the same time were mentioned(the crux in it is though that shortly after that spawn the upstairs team came back down and at that point it didnt matter any longer if the tank built up stacks), but you can't predict if the extra hits earlier into the phase would have killed the downstairs tank earlier(had it happened, given earlier attempts most likely would have resulted in a wipe), had we intentionally attacked all adds.
    There's just so many variables to it. Random dodge sprees, lag, bad timing.
    The thing I take offense in is claiming that the Holy Genesis bug wasn't abused, when it both happened and happened by design.
    I participated in it, so I'm guilty as well.
    I just don't claim the opposite happened.

  2. #92
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    As I mentioned, the fight was and still is bugged.
    One of those bugs is the adds not properly behaving in the last phase.

    During the time you kill shadow genesis 2 sets of adds spawn (not 3) and out of those 2 sets of adds, one add did indeed bug out and aggroed a player on a higher platform.
    So we dealt with 3 out of the 4 adds.

    Now, the question you asked was "Do we just let the adds spas out" and we did not do that.
    We specifically changed the position the boss was tanked to more reliably have the adds aggro the tank (nullifying an effective tactic of kiting the adds) and you can very clearly see people charge at an add the moment it spawns on the kill video.

    There are many ways to abuse the adds on Genesis. between moving the boss far away and then they never aggro, having all of them aggro players on the top floor and not having anyone on the bottom floor in the first place. Those all are tactics which allow you to intentionally change your raid setup to gain an advantage from it.

    Our tactic and raid setup did not rely on the adds not behaving correctly. The fact one of the 4 adds did not behave properly was a bug which is hard to overcome and we tried to avoid it.

    To summarize, the fight is bugged. We did not actively try and abuse any of the bugs that occur in the fight - To claim it was by design is not true. Yes, in hindsight we figured we could have taken extra precautions on top of what we did to ensure it did not bug, however it's easier to say so after you sit down and analyze something for hours.

    If anyone has any further questions you can talk to me ingame or send me a PM here on the forums.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by trionsaur REX View Post
    No they didn't.
    Didn't what?
    As you revealed most of the tactic, players downstairs anyway: yes the did (get aggroed). Furthest add away from the tank (therefore critically close to the healer) was intentinally aggroed by me with 2 diferent abilities to prevent or try to prevent having that jump on the healer / run away. Im not saying it was perfectly successfull every try but i found if i aggro it and get it on me i can start my cc rotation on it when i want to and not when it decides to kill the healer / run after someone. A dead dps is less of wipe chance then a healer barely managing to keep a tank alive. Additionally we had as many trys where a 3rd add returned to the tank and he exploded as the cc rotation failed then. Thats why i tryed at least. Also thats the point why i said it wasnt abused intentionally because i actively tryed to prevent that - but obv. this encounter needs some fixing.
    Im on mobile so cant do it myself but check who aggroed the adds in prev. trys aswell if the situation demanded it.

  4. #94
    Plane Walker Liadva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trionsaur REX View Post
    e Holy Genesis bug wasn't abused, when it both happened and happened by design.
    I participated in it, so I'm guilty as well.
    I just don't claim the opposite happened.
    The whole holy genesis exploit/abuse we are talking about here was ignoring them completely or having a rogue tank memory capture upstairs so the boss did nothing as well as the adds which is what Apoth did.
    Did we screw the Add AI/Boss AI on purpose? No. Then we didn't do anything wrong. We didn't purposefully exploit anything. And that's the big thing for me is intent. We had a clear strat to deal with the adds/interrupts downstairs.
    IMO that one add being delayed made it slightly worse and having pin down go on the bottom players floor players when it shouldn't made it even harder to heal. I'm quite sad you revealed we had a CC rotation for mages. But oh well people still have to manage the dps/heal check

    Things hopefully will change and bosses will be released with a clear instruction on what should count as a proper kill so this type of crap doesn't happen again. Hopefully trion make the decision to delay bosses if they need it so the devs don't need to make judgements on kills in the first place.
    Last edited by Liadva; 01-05-2016 at 07:15 AM.

    Thanks for the journey RIFT - It's been fun

  5. #95
    Shield of Telara trionsaur REX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orkiliyem View Post
    As I mentioned, the fight was and still is bugged.
    One of those bugs is the adds not properly behaving in the last phase.

    During the time you kill shadow genesis 2 sets of adds spawn (not 3) and out of those 2 sets of adds, one add did indeed bug out and aggroed a player on a higher platform.
    So we dealt with 3 out of the 4 adds.

    Now, the question you asked was "Do we just let the adds spas out" and we did not do that.
    We specifically changed the position the boss was tanked to more reliably have the adds aggro the tank (nullifying an effective tactic of kiting the adds) and you can very clearly see people charge at an add the moment it spawns on the kill video.

    There are many ways to abuse the adds on Genesis. between moving the boss far away and then they never aggro, having all of them aggro players on the top floor and not having anyone on the bottom floor in the first place. Those all are tactics which allow you to intentionally change your raid setup to gain an advantage from it.

    Our tactic and raid setup did not rely on the adds not behaving correctly. The fact one of the 4 adds did not behave properly was a bug which is hard to overcome and we tried to avoid it.

    To summarize, the fight is bugged. We did not actively try and abuse any of the bugs that occur in the fight - To claim it was by design is not true. Yes, in hindsight we figured we could have taken extra precautions on top of what we did to ensure it did not bug, however it's easier to say so after you sit down and analyze something for hours.

    If anyone has any further questions you can talk to me ingame or send me a PM here on the forums.
    Yes that was my exact quote and the answer was roughly: You wait, if they come towards the middle you deal with them.
    I'll just wait for logs and video and then discuss it more in depth.
    Until then it's you say - I say anyways.
    And I understand where you're coming from and the motivation to present it like this since Anony said the W1 confirmation is not final, but temporary and it will be dealt with once xmas vacation is over. So either way congrats on your W1* or future W1 in advance.

    My justification at the time was: Apoth got away with more impactful exploits on some of their first kills that were not revoked, which I still think is true when you compare the degree of exploit/bad sportsmanship. I just do not think any longer that it's okay to justify small exploits with the fact that bigger exploits have been legitimized (I mean if your new Apoth players have told you the stuff that I've heard here and there about clever use of memory capture on Dark Genesis, then you already know what kinda stuff I'm talking about)

  6. #96
    Plane Walker Liadva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trionsaur REX View Post
    I just do not think any longer that it's okay to justify small exploits with the fact that bigger exploits have been legitimized
    I'm going to ask orki to post you a quote of skype about the difference between a bug and an exploit (Dev quote). Since I reinstalled windows I lost my skype logs
    Last edited by Liadva; 01-05-2016 at 07:56 AM.

    Thanks for the journey RIFT - It's been fun

  7. #97
    Shield of Telara trionsaur REX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liadva View Post
    Did we screw the Add AI/Boss AI on purpose? No. Then we didn't do anything wrong. We didn't purposefully exploit anything. And that's the big thing for me is intent. We had a clear strat to deal with the adds/interrupts downstairs.
    IMO that one add being delayed made it slightly worse and having pin down go on the bottom players floor players when it shouldn't made it even harder to heal. I'm quite sad you revealed we had a CC rotation for mages. But oh well people still have to manage the dps/heal check
    I'd argue watching when you could actively interact with them is still bugging a part of it on purpose, even if it's only not the most significant part(ez claims he did, vids and log will confirm or not, and I'm 100% sure I was being told on voice to be patient upon spawns)
    And the yes the interrupts were planned, the stuns and blademarks weren't. Ppl did them if they felt like it. I'd actually be quite surprised if I missed that there was additional CC on the add that spawned on my side(That was the whole coordination)

    Adding up on revealing the mage stuns. I mean do you really expect me whenever it's being re-enabled and I'm working on it with Transcendent to be like:"Yo guys I can't spoiler how mechanics work and how fires dealt with them and what raid setup was being used"
    If anything I leveled the playing field a little bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by eaZytheoneandonly View Post
    Im on mobile so cant do it myself but check who aggroed the adds in prev. trys aswell if the situation demanded it.
    I do not have a video link, nor do I have any logs of the successful try or previous wipes. So I do not have any data to work with currently other than relying on the power of my memory ;)

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by trionsaur REX View Post
    And the yes the interrupts were planned, the stuns and blademarks weren't. Ppl did them if they felt like it. I'd actually be quite surprised if I missed that there was additional CC on the add that spawned on my side(That was the whole coordination)
    The night of the kill there were interrupt and stun kalerts shared.
    2 days after the kill i posted heavyly extended kalert sets for any debilitate, any stun in the game and any root/snare in the FoH inner forums (not sure if you ever read that). I would call that coordination to reapply stuns when others run out :-)
    And be honest... at the level of end game raiding we are doing im pretty sure 99% of the mages heared about blademark already and relized that it is effective on especially 2 targets... ppl are not stupid...

  9. #99
    Rift Team Ocho's Avatar
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    Dark Genesis and Arisen Arak will be once again available with the next hotfix.

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