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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: The Atrocious State of Gearing in Rift

  1. #1
    Champion of Telara Hikos's Avatar
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    Default The Atrocious State of Gearing in Rift

    So I feel a post like this has been coming for a long time now, and there have been musings in other threads, and a lot of talk behind the scenes, but it's about time it was synthesized into one coherent thread and space.

    And the TL;DR before you even read the post is that gearing for raids costs far too much. The system is cumbersome, unnecessary, and places the burden far too narrowly on a small spectrum of players.

    To share the numbers before we go any further:

    To raid T3, for progression for 3 months and come out of it with BiS gear as just ONE raider:

    50,155.5 plat.

    That is assuming that your guild bought all of the sigils for you, and all of your feasts, and you never had to re-dream orb a single piece of gear, and that you never want a single greater (if you wanted 2 greaters just wack on ~30k to that number to give you a nice 80k).

    Let's look it from a guild resource perspective:

    50,155.5 plat per raider. ~ 25 raiders per guild = 1,265,983.5 you require as a guild to raid, for three months progression and get the best gear.

    Over the last 3 tiers of raiding, the price of crafting to get into raiding has increased exponentially and is showing no signs of slowing down. It's becoming a crushing burden on all, even moderately progressive raiding guilds and their raiders. To the point where over half of my raid is turning down upgrades because of the exceedingly high price of getting upgrades. T2 eyes didn't go to the players most deserving, they went to the ones with plat who could actually afford to upgrade anything.

    And then if you are lucky enough to have the plat, and the mats, and the item to upgrade, you need to find the one crafter on the shard with the recipe you need. Only to find out it's on cooldown for another 14 hours. But let's not get into the inherent frustrations in the crafting system, although that definitely needs to be addressed too.

    When getting a "reward" in a game is not even wanted because of how much it costs for it to even be of benefit - serious questions need to be asked about the direction of this aspect of the game.

    People are quitting left and right. Just today one of Apoths long standing raiders quit. Since the start of free to play the game has bled raiders left and right with good guilds disbanding by the dozen and Trion continued, despite this unprecedented exodus of the core of their game, to turn up the heat over and over and over on raiders.

    Over a MILLION plat. For 1 tier. Now I'm trying my best to not be vitriolic at this point.

    Something needs to change and fast.

    When the hardest part of gearing to raid is the grind outside of it than the work you put in inside of it then you lose players in droves.

    I've made a state of the game post before. But this is not only dire. It's absurd. And it stands to hurt Trion even more in the long run.

    If things don't change you're going to be losing a lot more than just one dedicated raider.

    Below is all the nitty gritty of it:

    N.B. All of the prices were the LOW end of AH gathered from multiple NA shares. (I.e. there were no where near enough mats to make any significant number of any of these).

    To upgrade a full set of drop gear you need:

    A full set of magnificent runes (x13) from base.

    Current cost:

    Capricious stars 894 @ 2.10 = 1877.4 plat.
    Nightmare stars 234 @ 3.50 = 819 plat.
    Attainium Crystal 364 @ 1 = 364 plat.
    Pelagic Fragments 624 @1.6 = 998.4 plat.
    Essence of Reverie 285 @ 1 = 285 plat.
    Thalasite crystal 390 @ 0.6 = 234 plat.
    Strands of Draum 13 @ 65 = 845 plat.
    Fused Sarfiber 195 @ 1.5 = 292.5 plat.

    Total = 5533.3 plat.

    Earring rune:

    Imperishable XXXX 2 @ 1000 = 2000.
    Capricious Star 32 @ 2.10 = 67.2.
    Nightmare Star 24 @ 3.5 = 84.
    Endless dust 4 @ 4.20 = 16.8.
    Essence of Revreie 12 @ 1 = 12.
    Dreaming rune Amender 2 @ 400 = 800.
    Strands of Draum 2 @ 65 = 130.

    Total = 3110 plat (for 2 runes).

    Dream orbs (Average of 8 per slot to get BiS - 4 slots):

    Dream Bolt 16 @ 30 = 480.
    Attainium Crystal 8 @ 1 - 8.

    Total = 488 plat.

    Blinding dream orbs (Average of 8 per slot to get BiS - 4 slots):

    Dream Bolt 16 @ 30 = 480.
    Imperishable Terrene Mote 80 @ 36 = 2880.
    Endless dust 8 @ 4.20 = 33.6.

    Total = 3393.6 plat.

    Seal:

    Imperishable XXXX 2 @ 1000 = 2000.
    Endless Dust 8 @ 4.20 = 33.6.
    Disintergrating blend 4 @ 1 = 4.
    Nightmare Amalgamation 1 @ 300.
    Strands of Arak 3 @ 15 = 45.

    Total = 2424.6 plat.

    Rep Runes:

    Total = 600 plat.

    T3 drop upgrades.

    So let's be generous and say that roughly 50% of the gear you wear you buy from the store and 50% you get from drops in raid (on the left side). So 4 and 4 - with there being 8 pieces.

    Bought gear - side graded to fit your CP profile:

    XXXX Amender 4 @ 400 plat = 1600.

    N.B. Mats are ~ 320 plat but 80 plat for the 20 hour Cooldown and that was the cheapest price on the auction house.

    Total = 1600 plat.

    So already, so far under the old system, raiders have already spent 17,149.5 plat. Each.

    And this is before the real issue even starts.

    The one that's crossed the line, making even the most dedicated raiders quit, and here we go.

    4 drop armour pieces:

    XXXX Amender 8 @ 400 = 3200.
    Dreaming Ornament Amender 8 @ 350 = 2800.

    N.B. Mats are ~ 320 plat but 80 plat for the 20 hour Cooldown and that was the cheapest price on the auction house. And same for the Dreaming ornament amender.

    Total = 6000 plat. For 4. Upgrades. Just so you can use them and have them be better than T2 gear.

    Accessories x 5 (2 rings, 2 earrings, 1 necklace):

    Dreaming Ornament Amender 5 @ 350 = 1750.

    Total = 1750 plat.

    Weapons???????

    We really have no idea yet. But let's hope we can actually use weapons that drop without upgrading them.

    So that's at LEAST 9350 plat PER raider just to get a full set of EPIC T3 gear.

    Now let's down to the nitty gritty, the part that I bear a significant burden of as a raid leader.

    Consumables:

    Now there are many variables when it comes to these.
    Here https://www.prancingturtle.com/Session/Detail/7535 is an example of the number of pulls you can get through in a 4 hour 40 minute raid night.

    On average across a tier progression lasts ~ 3months for most guilds. Ours included.

    Sigils:

    2 per pull.
    ~30 pulls a night over 3 nights.
    180 sigils a week at 5 plat per.
    900 plat per week - times 12 weeks of progression = 10800.

    Total 10800 plat.

    Powerstone/oilstone/whetstones:

    1 per night.
    3 per week at 10 plat each = 30 plat per week.
    12 weeks = 360 plat.

    Total = 360 plat.

    Powersurge/brightsurge Vials:

    6 plat per.
    3 per night.
    9 per week = 56 plat.
    12 weeks = 672.

    Total = 672 plat.

    Feasts:

    6 plat per.
    6 per night.
    18 per week = 108 plat.
    12 weeks = 1296 plat.

    Total = 1296 plat.

    Crit pots (Yes you should be using these):

    10 plat per bottle - 1 bottle per pull (yes often you would use two let's be conservative).
    30 pulls a night.
    90 per week = 900 plat.
    12 weeks = 10800.

    Total = 10800 plat.

    Insoles:

    5 plat per.
    3 per week.
    15 plat per week.
    12 weeks = 180 plat.

    Total = 180 plat.

    And now the real fun begins.

    Raiders like orange am I right?

    Being best in slot geared is good right?

    Well here goes:

    7 pieces of armour upgraded to relic:

    Nightmare XXXX amender 7 @ 550 = 3850.
    Dreaming rune amender 7 @ 400 = 2800.

    Total = 6650.

    3 weapons upgraded to relic (Assuming same upgrade costs):

    Nightmare XXXX amender 3 @ 550 = 1650.
    Dreaming rune amender 3 @ 400 = 1200.

    Total = 2850.

    Oh and you upgraded some gear???

    Better buy a rune unsocketing apparatus!

    Oh and you got it an upgrade to relic? Better by another one!

    2 per left slot slot and 1 per right for 26 unsocketers at a 1:1 plat to credit ratio (very generous these days):

    144 plat x 26 = 3744 plat.

    And we won't even talk about the sheer number of re-dream orbing you have to do.

    My suggestion.

    Stop with any multi tiered loot system. Raid drops should be as good as store bought items.

    The upgrade to relic should require a store bought item and the heart, nothing more. It should be a reward not a punishment.
    Last edited by Hikos; 11-22-2015 at 05:11 AM.

  2. #2
    Soulwalker
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    Default As a guild leader of a top tier progression guild...

    Hikos is right. its out of hand.

    and The Math is accurate.
    Guild Leader:Nefarious @ Laethys - nefariousrift.enjin.com

  3. #3
    Rift Chaser squafro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hikos View Post
    And the TL;DR before you even read the post is that gearing for raids costs far too much. The system is cumbersome, unnecessary, and places the burden far too narrowly on a small spectr
    I think this is a very important post for the developers of Rift to read. It is also imperative to keep this thread civil so that the message does not get derailed. Many people are leaving over these recent changes, and understandably so.

    The intrinsic rewards for raiders playing this game have been so outrageously restricted by extraneous costs and requirements that players who cannot cough up several hundred dollars every few months are at risk of being effectively blocked from this content.

    Why are such excessive monetization schemes allowed to infiltrate the raiding aspect of Rift? This just spits in the face of dedicated raid-developers who created original and enjoyable content.

    I don't want to personally call any staff out, but honestly, what kind of job satisfaction can someone possibly get when they are screwing over both their colleagues and customers at the same time?

  4. #4
    Plane Touched Kapnia's Avatar
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    Since raiding cost a lot, raiding should give you some plat. Lets say 80-100 plat per T3 boss. If you kill all 9 bosses that would be enough to get one big amender per week. It is not much if you just started progressing, because you probably won't kill 9 bosses in the first week

    I suggested this during T3 testing but it looks like Trion doesn't like the idea

    Trion please give plat per boss and remove one of the two upgrade paths from dropped gear. And please increase all stats on T3 items because they are a very small upgrade (except for trinkets and weapons).
    RIP RIFT | <Transcendent> | Stream | [AddOn] PullTimer
    Trions business plan ...


  5. #5
    Shield of Telara somestuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hikos View Post
    So I feel a post like this has been coming for a long time now, and there have been musings in other threads, and a lot of talk behind the scenes, but it's about time it was synthesized into one coherent thread and space.

    And the TL;DR before you even read the post is that gearing for raids costs far too much. The system is cumbersome, unnecessary, and places the burden far too narrowly on a small spectrum of players.

    To share the numbers before we go any further:

    To raid T3, for progression for 3 months and come out of it with BiS gear as just ONE raider:

    50,155.5 plat.

    That is assuming that your guild bought all of the sigils for you, and all of your feasts, and you never had to re-dream orb a single piece of gear, and that you never want a single greater (if you wanted 2 greaters just wack on ~30k to that number to give you a nice 80k).

    Let's look it from a guild resource perspective:

    50,155.5 plat per raider. ~ 25 raiders per guild = 1,265,983.5 you require as a guild to raid, for three months progression and get the best gear.

    Over the last 3 tiers of raiding, the price of crafting to get into raiding has increased exponentially and is showing no signs of slowing down. It's becoming a crushing burden on all, even moderately progressive raiding guilds and their raiders. To the point where over half of my raid is turning down upgrades because of the exceedingly high price of getting upgrades. T2 eyes didn't go to the players most deserving, they went to the ones with plat who could actually afford to upgrade anything.

    And then if you are lucky enough to have the plat, and the mats, and the item to upgrade, you need to find the one crafter on the shard with the recipe you need. Only to find out it's on cooldown for another 14 hours. But let's not get into the inherent frustrations in the crafting system, although that definitely needs to be addressed too.

    When getting a "reward" in a game is not even wanted because of how much it costs for it to even be of benefit - serious questions need to be asked about the direction of this aspect of the game.

    People are quitting left and right. Just today one of Apoths long standing raiders quit. Since the start of free to play the game has bled raiders left and right with good guilds disbanding by the dozen and Trion continued, despite this unprecedented exodus of the core of their game, to turn up the heat over and over and over on raiders.

    Over a MILLION plat. For 1 tier. Now I'm trying my best to not be vitriolic at this point.

    Something needs to change and fast.

    When the hardest part of gearing to raid is the grind outside of it than the work you put in inside of it then you lose players in droves.

    I've made a state of the game post before. But this is not only dire. It's absurd. And it stands to hurt Trion even more in the long run.

    If things don't change you're going to be losing a lot more than just one dedicated raider.

    Below is all the nitty gritty of it:

    N.B. All of the prices were the LOW end of AH gathered from multiple NA shares. (I.e. there were no where near enough mats to make any significant number of any of these).

    To upgrade a full set of drop gear you need:

    A full set of magnificent runes (x13) from base.

    Current cost:

    Capricious stars 894 @ 2.10 = 1877.4 plat.
    Nightmare stars 234 @ 3.50 = 819 plat.
    Attainium Crystal 364 @ 1 = 364 plat.
    Pelagic Fragments 624 @1.6 = 998.4 plat.
    Essence of Reverie 285 @ 1 = 285 plat.
    Thalasite crystal 390 @ 0.6 = 234 plat.
    Strands of Draum 13 @ 65 = 845 plat.
    Fused Sarfiber 195 @ 1.5 = 292.5 plat.

    Total = 5533.3 plat.

    Earring rune:

    Imperishable XXXX 2 @ 1000 = 2000.
    Capricious Star 32 @ 2.10 = 67.2.
    Nightmare Star 24 @ 3.5 = 84.
    Endless dust 4 @ 4.20 = 16.8.
    Essence of Revreie 12 @ 1 = 12.
    Dreaming rune Amender 2 @ 400 = 800.
    Strands of Draum 2 @ 65 = 130.

    Total = 3110 plat (for 2 runes).

    Dream orbs (Average of 8 per slot to get BiS - 4 slots):

    Dream Bolt 16 @ 30 = 480.
    Attainium Crystal 8 @ 1 - 8.

    Total = 488 plat.

    Blinding dream orbs (Average of 8 per slot to get BiS - 4 slots):

    Dream Bolt 16 @ 30 = 480.
    Imperishable Terrene Mote 80 @ 36 = 2880.
    Endless dust 8 @ 4.20 = 33.6.

    Total = 3393.6 plat.

    Seal:

    Imperishable XXXX 2 @ 1000 = 2000.
    Endless Dust 8 @ 4.20 = 33.6.
    Disintergrating blend 4 @ 1 = 4.
    Nightmare Amalgamation 1 @ 300.
    Strands of Arak 3 @ 15 = 45.

    Total = 2424.6 plat.

    Rep Runes:

    Total = 600 plat.

    T3 drop upgrades.

    So let's be generous and say that roughly 50% of the gear you wear you buy from the store and 50% you get from drops in raid (on the left side). So 4 and 4 - with there being 8 pieces.

    Bought gear - side graded to fit your CP profile:

    XXXX Amender 4 @ 400 plat = 1600.

    N.B. Mats are ~ 320 plat but 80 plat for the 20 hour Cooldown and that was the cheapest price on the auction house.

    Total = 1600 plat.

    So already, so far under the old system, raiders have already spent 17,149.5 plat. Each.

    And this is before the real issue even starts.

    The one that's crossed the line, making even the most dedicated raiders quit, and here we go.

    4 drop armour pieces:

    XXXX Amender 8 @ 400 = 3200.
    Dreaming Ornament Amender 8 @ 350 = 2800.

    N.B. Mats are ~ 320 plat but 80 plat for the 20 hour Cooldown and that was the cheapest price on the auction house. And same for the Dreaming ornament amender.

    Total = 6000 plat. For 4. Upgrades. Just so you can use them and have them be better than T2 gear.

    Accessories x 5 (2 rings, 2 earrings, 1 necklace):

    Dreaming Ornament Amender 5 @ 350 = 1750.

    Total = 1750 plat.

    Weapons???????

    We really have no idea yet. But let's hope we can actually use weapons that drop without upgrading them.

    So that's at LEAST 9350 plat PER raider just to get a full set of EPIC T3 gear.

    Now let's down to the nitty gritty, the part that I bear a significant burden of as a raid leader.

    Consumables:

    Now there are many variables when it comes to these.
    Here https://www.prancingturtle.com/Session/Detail/7535 is an example of the number of pulls you can get through in a 4 hour 40 minute raid night.

    On average across a tier progression lasts ~ 3months for most guilds. Ours included.

    Sigils:

    2 per pull.
    ~30 pulls a night over 3 nights.
    180 sigils a week at 5 plat per.
    900 plat per week - times 12 weeks of progression = 10800.

    Total 10800 plat.

    Powerstone/oilstone/whetstones:

    1 per night.
    3 per week at 10 plat each = 30 plat per week.
    12 weeks = 360 plat.

    Total = 360 plat.

    Powersurge/brightsurge Vials:

    6 plat per.
    3 per night.
    9 per week = 56 plat.
    12 weeks = 672.

    Total = 672 plat.

    Feasts:

    6 plat per.
    6 per night.
    18 per week = 108 plat.
    12 weeks = 1296 plat.

    Total = 1296 plat.

    Crit pots (Yes you should be using these):

    10 plat per bottle - 1 bottle per pull (yes often you would use two let's be conservative).
    30 pulls a night.
    90 per week = 900 plat.
    12 weeks = 10800.

    Total = 10800 plat.

    Insoles:

    5 plat per.
    3 per week.
    15 plat per week.
    12 weeks = 180 plat.

    Total = 180 plat.

    And now the real fun begins.

    Raiders like orange am I right?

    Being best in slot geared is good right?

    Well here goes:

    7 pieces of armour upgraded to relic:

    Nightmare XXXX amender 7 @ 550 = 3850.
    Dreaming rune amender 7 @ 400 = 2800.

    Total = 6650.

    3 weapons upgraded to relic (Assuming same upgrade costs):

    Nightmare XXXX amender 3 @ 550 = 1650.
    Dreaming rune amender 3 @ 400 = 1200.

    Total = 2850.

    Oh and you upgraded some gear???

    Better buy a rune unsocketing apparatus!

    Oh and you got it an upgrade to relic? Better by another one!

    2 per left slot slot and 1 per right for 26 unsocketers at a 1:1 plat to credit ratio (very generous these days):

    144 plat x 26 = 3744 plat.

    And we won't even talk about the sheer number of re-dream orbing you have to do.

    My suggestion.

    Stop with any multi tiered loot system. Raid drops should be as good as store bought items.

    The upgrade to relic should require a store bought item and the heart, nothing more. It should be a reward not a punishment.
    Hikos is right. I doubt Trion changes this, if you need more plat they created these things called rex that you can sell on the AH.

  6. #6
    RIFT Guide Writer Hababa's Avatar
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    It's bad.

    I haven't raided tier 3 for a number of reasons (the new crafting costs was a major one) but from what I have heard and my experience of tier 2, I fully understand the problems.

    I do not know of anyone who thought the loot system in Tier 2 was a good system. As Hikos has already touched upon, Eyes of Madness were actually hard to give away as people didn't want to spend the plat to upgrade. I know personally that when I got an eye for a helm or shoulder piece, I simply thought of the plat cost rather than the excitement for an upgrade.

    Now that this system has been expanded so it effects all dropped loot, not only does it kill any motivation for me to make a return, it also makes me question whether the players enjoyment is even taken to account when decisions at Trion are being made.
    Kerghann@Zaviel
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  7. #7
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hikos View Post
    .
    Stuff.
    rarely read a post as reasonableas this on these forums, couldnt agree more
    Last edited by Techs; 11-22-2015 at 06:15 AM.
    Professional Saltminer

  8. #8
    Soulwalker
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    Not everyone has a bot to farm plat for them, i hope they reply to this =)

    Reis e Fanta são viadinhos e gostam de pinto.

  9. #9
    RIFT Guide Writer fufi's Avatar
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    Can't do anything but agree with this. I didn't upgrade anything in T2 but weapons. I miss Vanilla free relics.
    Though with the insane cost of runes and dream orbs, even that would be expensive ...
    <Apotheosys>@Typhiria
    World First 5-man Easy Mode 1/4 GP

  10. #10
    Telaran BlackLab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hikos View Post
    It should be a reward not a punishment.
    This, exactly!

    Back at lv50 i had 3 full relic chars in ID and even in SL t1 i had both my chars full relic geared.
    Now? Why would any normal player upgrade anything more than what he has to? (weapons)

    Every time i got a t2 weapon on my main or alt, my first thought was "ah f**k now i need to upgrade it".
    Then i looked at my platinium and was "aaah f**k i only have 2k plat left.. thats going to hurt"

    And now its even worst.. i got an earring in MoM and had to spend 2k plat for a relic amender to change the item, to have it in the state it should have droped!

    For gear its even worst, you have to upgrade them TWICE with relic amenders to get set bonuses?
    WTF TRION?

    Again, great decisions! All you see is the potential REX sales, while making so many other players quit.
    Working very hard to kill the game, as always.
    Last edited by BlackLab; 11-22-2015 at 06:45 AM.

  11. #11
    RIFT Guide Writer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hikos View Post
    When getting a "reward" in a game is not even wanted because of how much it costs for it to even be of benefit - serious questions need to be asked about the direction of this aspect of the game.
    This is the most funny thing that has happened this expansion. We literally had discussions after clearing iGP on who is gonna take the eyes and people didnt want them.
    Spending 2k plat to get a relic item thats barely an improvement is just not really worth it.

    The whole situation is just comically bad.
    killings - Mage - Apotheosys - Typhiria

  12. #12
    Rift Disciple YellowYellow's Avatar
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    Aside from the cost of getting materials to upgrade the weapons, I believe some guilds (like mine) even takes sometime to get the Eye. With us running effectively 1 IGP group per week, that is like having only 1 guildie getting an upgrade every week, or at best 2 guildies get an upgrade every week. Eyes might get thrown around amongst those that don't need it it Prague weapons, but for a progression guild, having only 1 or 2 of your guildies getting an effective upgrade kinda slows things down. (And of course I haven't added stuff like runes and orbs to this, like what Hikos said)

  13. #13
    Shield of Telara trionsaur REX's Avatar
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    I do not think 7 out of 8 dream orb items dropping from the first 5 bosses in MoM is random.
    The cape after all has been an endboss/deep into the raid drop in the first two tiers this expansion.

    I think it's designed so the early/easy bosses give those drops that cost more, which cause the crafting/trading aspect to be more featured.

    In case ppl are interested which boss drops what:
    Pagura
    1) Terribelt
    2) bad earring

    Arak Jr
    1) Trinket
    2) Shoulder
    3) bad ring

    Fauxmire
    1) gloves
    2) good ring

    Pillars
    1) Legs
    2) Neck

    Envy
    1) Helmet
    2) good earring

    trash speedkill
    2 items out of both rings and earrings(though all kills so far have been 1 ring + 1 earring, so that may be a pattern)

  14. #14
    Champion
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    Whilst I agree with much that has been said .. shouldn't folks take responsibility for crafting themselves? I have all crafts maxed and have no need to lean on the auction house to purchase items. It is a luxury. You are not meant to get there over night but some want instant. However the upgrades are poo so apart from weapons there needs to be a real incentive to upgrade.

  15. #15
    Rift Chaser ILikeOranges's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoMo1 View Post
    Whilst I agree with much that has been said .. shouldn't folks take responsibility for crafting themselves? I have all crafts maxed and have no need to lean on the auction house to purchase items. It is a luxury. You are not meant to get there over night but some want instant. However the upgrades are poo so apart from weapons there needs to be a real incentive to upgrade.
    You can't do that without spending quite a bit of credits. Limited to 3 professions by default


    ILikeOranges@Zaviel - ARAK IS FINALLY DEAD (MoM World 1st)

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