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  1. #181
    Champion of Telara aileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sedvick View Post
    The encounter didn't break, all the mechanics still happened just on drastically different timers.
    So by that logic why dev's not adding pause function or pause command to game?
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  2. #182
    Ascendant Sedvick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aileen View Post
    I don't know and care if it's only Addiction.I would be happy if you explain that what you classified as exploit to me via PM about that fight.
    See:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sedvick View Post
    Now let's talk about a last boss in the tier where a mechanic was actually 100% skipped and almost everybody was fine with it and adopted it as their own, seeing as it was much much easier; Abominus in SL t2. Similar to Crucia, he was the last boss of the tier where the original strat to W#1 the boss and the strat for W#2 were not only different, but one of the largest/hardest mechanics of the phase was completely skipped due to boss health manipulation. Ocular Blast (or was it Barrage?) was put into the fight's final phase to make the raid stack up and use very specific positioning, while being very heal-intensive, to throw you for a loop and leave your comfort zone. Afterwards, you'd need to spread out immediately to avoid his gaze from killing a whole lot of stacked up people. The W#1 kill did not skip this mechanic and everything was fine. The W#2 kill didn't come for multiple weeks, but it was discovered that if you just burn down Abom's head and get it pinned before this mechanic occurs, you simply don't even have to do it, skipping it entirely. There were quite a few people saying that this shouldn't be the intended way to kill this boss, but it was later approved as not being an exploit and later adopted as being the best strategy by probably 100% of the guilds that later killed, and continue to kill it.
    Words.

  3. #183
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by aileen View Post
    The people you titled as nerds are actually trying to do what you said on one of your previous posts' on different thread actually. Maybe not same words you used but actually pretty much this.
    He later became unbanned. You have failed where I have succeeded. Good day sir.
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  4. #184
    RIFT Guide Writer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sedvick View Post
    The encounter didn't break, all the mechanics still happened just on drastically different timers.
    Ok, if you can tell me with a straight face that stopping dps for that long sounds like a legit strategy id eat something. Probably food.
    killings - Mage - Apotheosys - Typhiria

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by paschl View Post
    Ok, if you can tell me with a straight face that stopping dps for that long sounds like a legit strategy id eat something. Probably food.
    He, like the devs, are here to dissemble, not actually answer with what they really think.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by aileen View Post
    So that thing you classified is abom using an ability but its not related by enrage timer?

    There were many fights in rift's history if you had dps you would force boss not doing ability and force the stage change due to priority list.
    E.G burning Regulos to 65% (dunno if i remember correctly it's been 2 years I killed him) he would skip tentacles.

    Skipping ability prio and skipping enrage timer/extending encounter timer are not same.



    Seems you didn't try to understand what I mean by quoting your post. It's okay didn't even expect you will understand too. I'll try to bold the main sentence for you

    Terrible business practice IMO. done by double standards and corruption for us.
    You are comparing apples and oranges.

    Permabanning someone for a comment in Twitch chat = Terrible business practice
    Making a final judgement on whether a tactic was considered an exploit = Not terrible business practice.
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  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by paschl View Post
    Did any of the previous strategies involve alt+tabbing for literally 30% of the fight?
    I, for one, see through your veiled attempt to paint Izkinra as some sort of invalid encounter.

  8. #188
    Plane Walker Liadva's Avatar
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    The more you justify your guilds' actions and the fact it's dev approved really makes me wonder the direction this game is heading. As far as abom is concerned having a **** ton of dps to skip a mechanic still requires players to press buttons and not be completely brainless. Comparing abom occular blast skip to crucia is not even close.

    If I was a new player who wanted into the raiding scene and I seen this on the forums that you could literally stop dps and do nothing for xx time to beat the final encounter in a raid instance... Yeah that game wouldn't even finish installing.

    Thanks for the journey RIFT - It's been fun

  9. #189
    Ascendant Sedvick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aileen View Post
    So that thing you classified is abom using an ability but its not related by enrage timer?

    There were many fights in rift's history if you had dps you would force boss not doing ability and force the stage change due to priority list.
    E.G burning Regulos to 65% (dunno if i remember correctly it's been 2 years I killed him) he would skip tentacles.

    Skipping ability prio and skipping enrage timer/extending encounter timer are not same.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zazen View Post
    You took direct actions to alter the enrage which was not an intended component of the fight. You did this with a Trion employee's participation and thus the implicit approval of Trion.
    Finally, to address this issue is quite simple. As has been said multiple times previously, since you guys still obviously don't seem to understand the encounter, Mechanical Tyrant Crucia does not, as far as I know, have a hard enrage timer like most other bosses. Her enrage is more along the lines of a soft enrage, and is actually an ability that she has to use that is on a ability-priority queue, just like I mentioned about Abominus. We discovered this ability, Storm of Failure, cannot occur during certain phases, namely p4. Since p4 has it's own unique ability-priority queues and places SoF under these if you manipulate her hp on the timers given, just like Abom again. The difference here is that you want to burn down Abom before a certain timer, while you want to slow dps for Crucia's timers. Once we figured this out, over a week ago, we wanted to confirm that this was intended and that we could somehow form a strategy around it. We confirmed with said dev that made the encounter that it was intended and proceeded to form this strategy we executed around that. It may be counterintuitive to everything that has happened before with the intended designs of bosses and the way they are killed, but it is in no way an exploit.

    So, to quickly go over it again. SoF is one of Crucia's abilities. The encounter has no official hard enrage (that I know of). We manipulated her timers in our favor so that we would not have to partake in p4. Not that we could anyways since the polarity of the green had shifted. She started p4 before 9min. P4 abilities/mechanics are higher on the priority list than her casting her wipe mechanic, SoF. P4 ends, crystals have to cast their health debuff on the raid which takes ~6s. Her main priority ability after p4 is Chain Lightning, and then she goes back to normal ability queue depending on time. 9min. has already passed so the ability in question is SoF. We beat that timer and killed the boss.

    I may have left something out, but that's what I got for now.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by aileen View Post
    Seems you still didn't understand okay let me explain to you and what makes it terrible business practice.

    Your friend or person you know or whatsoever banned due to twitch chat and dev guessed he would using same nick on the game so did't over reaction and banned him. Thats really bad business practice.

    Now lets do same for raid community. Guild X without dev contact and not having player who is working as dev kills boss lets name it "Willzyx" and guild with having such capabilities directly talking with devs and dev classifies kill as non-legit even thou the code / script of encounter allowed it.

    Vice versa happens and kill becomes as legit because of friendship or having contacts in touch with "good relations"...

    This is what makes it bad business practice for me because its double standard, undisclosed information sharing etc.

    If that information shared with community before such drama happend it wouldn't be bad business practice simple...
    Every top end guild has dev relations.
    You said yourself you did Alpha/Beta testing. Can't do much of that without dev relations.
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  11. #191
    Shield of Telara trionsaur REX's Avatar
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    When I recapture what T1 raiding has been:

    2nd boss MS: Apo reports bug on PTS. They're being told this is going to get fixed. On live they recheck for the fix and when they see it's not fixed they try to be cute and operate in a grey area. They get punished.

    On Izkinra I think there were North American voices complaining about stuff that put them at disadvantage. I'm not browsing through boards, largely relying on my memory here. So this may or may not be right.

    4th boss MS: Apo kills the boss with enrage being disabled. Devs approve the kill. I was very surprised that they didn't stop such a malfunctioning. But them being revoked a kill earlier probably weighed a little bit in their favor on the virtual dragon justice scale. If I'm the dev watching that I'm saying: Hello guys, I've made a huge mistake. I can't live hotfix the enrage timer. Everything else works pretty much. It's supposed to be x min. If you guys need longer than x min, 5 sec, it's going to be reset/revoked.
    The result of these Apotheosys kills was that other guilds complained about their massive headstart on Threngar as they took a little more time to execute on the non-enrage version and instead faced a very harsh enrage for a week.

    Crucia normal mode: Weirdly/Wrongfully tuned fight that gives you apparently multiple outs that are legal. From an encounter standpoint it's very weird as it forces you to stand around for most of the time. Encounter allows you to bring some weird mage specs, especialy a superweird dps tank, because otherwise mages probably wouldn't be viable dps here with the 9 min enrage and the strategy that Trion had in mind in the first place.
    Overall it's very stale and just requires good tinkering outside of raids as of how to maximize efficiency in this particular situation and solid execution and understanding from some key players.


    So if Trion really cares about PvE players in Rift that value (friendly) competition, they have to give us something awesome with Crucia HM.
    No I'm talking not about some stay spread for most of the fight mechanic. I'm talking about some dynamics. I'd appreciate if you gave us some very dynamic fight, that includes:
    -personal responsibilities
    -coordination
    -dps(of course, duh)
    -a developing fight
    -limitations, but not in a static way

    Personal responsibilities are mechanics that either result in your own failure or in a failure of the whole group.
    For example kiting lasers on Warden Thrax was a fun mechanic as it challenged your personal decision making to recognize you were being followed, required your creativity/improvisation to kite it accordingly within the given space parameters and challenged your ability to see the floor and not bring other players in danger.
    There's probably more examples but that's the first that comes to mind as Warden Thrax minus the last enrage phase was a pretty dynamic and fun encounter that could have been so much more.
    Lately these personal responsibilities has been placed largely on tanks.
    I don't like that you take that away from the group where everyone has to be prepared for the case that it's his turn to perform.
    On Crucia normal mode I feel like the biggest personal responsibility is probably staying attached to where you're supposed to stand and listen to the raidlead.
    That's boring. And then there's the switcheroo where you can kill maximum 1 other player.

    Coordination is planning how to deal with certain problems and develop patterns that take care and simplifiy these problems in a way that you improve your success rate significantly.
    I feel like the biggest kind coordination effort on Crucia normal mode is planning positions for P1/3/(5) beforehand and building a chain in p2. I don't know. The chain is okay I suppose.
    Other patterns like: Wait for red circles around players to despawn before you reset stacks isn't really that special. In contrast this forces you into that static gameplay. Other than a couple players who play melee(There isn't space for many) you really have nearly no movement on this fight.
    Color stacking on Laethys was better, as it would result in severe efficiency drops whenever you wasn't aware of your position, and what happened around you.
    Another idea I liked were the portals on Drekanoth. Not collecting eggs or whatever you do there. But the idea in general, where you're forced to send ppl somewhere to prevent a wipe. You could do sth like this on Crucia where Matrodraum or whoever is the super baddy nowadays(not really that much into lore, when Rift is like timetravelling 24/7 whenever it suits your needs) shows up and putts Crucia into sleep. You have to make a decision of who you send into the portals to fight her nightmares. If you fail, she enrages. There's multiple nightmares that require your assault squad to do different stuff. At the same time the rest of your team has to do certain things in the real world that buy you time in the nightmare, like beating the **** out of Storm Legion trolls with alarmclocks that try to wake her ;)
    That would be fun, offer a lot of different ways how to solve the task, require both individual skill and good coordination.

    Dps is obvious. You should be good at what you do when you wanna beat the hardmode version of any tier's endboss. Rift usually offers a decent chunk of methods how you can change your group's dps.
    I liked the softenrage with Inyr'Kta in principle where you had to decide when to reset stacks in the last phase and then kill her before your stacks got too high for healers.
    From what I hear the dps requirement on normal mode Crucia wasn't supposed to be this high, but I guess the initial check on hardmode Crucia should be at least this high, probably higher, when you wanna buy some more time to work on Tier 2 without boring top guilds to death.

    Development of encounters is something that I really like. On Crucia normal mode I don't like what was done with the standard phases. When you get out of Phase 2 the first time you're awaiting something to happen you haven't seen yet. Some change, something new, something developing. Instead you do have to execute 100% of P1 again with the difference that her Breath is happening less often. That's not fun. But I understand with the restrictions that you put on positioning on this encounter it's probably not possible.
    Instead of making these random red spread circle mechanic that none figured out how to predict. You could have done something like you shout out 3 names in the middle of the screen like what happened on 3rd platform Abominus minions with the person who had to run in front and place the Sandbreath or what it was away from the raid.
    Have 3 names called out like: Crucia charges Player A with negative polarity.
    Crucia charges player B with positive polarity
    Crucia supercharges player C.
    She getts 3 stacks of "Crackling Air" each Crackling Air stack increases her outgoing damage by 10%. Now players A and B have to run to the conduits at the border of the room and deliver their charge in time. It removes one stack of "Crackling Air" to limit the increase of outgoing damage.
    Player C starts AOEing massive damage with a 15m radius for 10 sec. He/She has to run out and get massively healed and in the beginning you have to time/prepare tons of groupheal for the player C not to wipe the raid until he's out.
    So that's development. When you only have 40% for P4 to trigger, that putts a real time restriction on this phase and whenever one of the players fails to deliver his charge to the right conduit her outgoing damage is buffed which putts further time constraints on your success.
    Now this is 15 min of brainstorming that I did while coming up with this post. It's not too hard to come up with some solid ideas of how to make a fight challenging, interactive and entertaining.

    I like that you put certain limitations on fights.
    In the end each class in Rift has multiple talent trees and it would be a waste if one spec was the best choice on every encounter. So these limitations force raiders to practice, get to know and maybe even master multiple specs.
    So I like that. Change of scenery is key. I liked that on Pumpkin. As a DPS player I really wasn't playing Pyro outside of Warfronts and the open world. And Pumpkin's adds were like a nice possibility for me to bring that out, the little dps race in the end encouraged it even more.
    The spread mechanic in Phase 2 that is predictable still allows you to bring like 4 pure melee players and more melee specs that have gapclosing abilities like NB/Sin.
    So that's fun as you have to balance the right amount of range players to swap on adds in P1 and crowd control them and maximize boss dps at the same time.
    It's not the endboss so the enrage wasn't that strict and other than
    -Don't stand in 2 flame throwers at the same time for more than a couple seconds
    -Run in the pool at the right time
    -Spread out properly while respecting the flamethrower rule
    -Manage the adds
    -Manage tankswaps
    There wasn't that much going on. But it's still a fun fight. If it wasn't Tier 1 and a 3 boss Raid I think it should be a little bit more complex, but I won't complain. I even think the Lt. Charles in the end is fun as it forces you to think harder about which souls you select for the fight.
    I think it's also okay to make phases like P1 Crucia that limits how many players play melee or have mechanics that are dangerous if they hit a group but not if they hit single individuals that are more than 20m away from the boss.

    I hope someone in charge over at your place will find this post and take the time to read it. Take your time to make Crucia HM a worthy fight for everyone and think it though carefully how you trigger phases and stuff so this: "Hue hue, you didn't think of this loophole so we're totally gonna cheese it!" doesn't happen again.
    Just give us a good encounter that's challenging, fun and engaging. Crucia normal mode is at best challenging from a DPS and execution standpoint. I really hope you will severely alter what she does on hardmode. Because adding 1 or 2 things won't change that much most likely. It would still stay a static fight. I am not very convinced that this is a proper final boss for the first tier of raiding. You still have one chance to change the narrative of the beginning of the this expansion!

  12. #192
    Ascendant Sedvick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liadva View Post
    If I was a new player who wanted into the raiding scene and I seen this on the forums that you could literally stop dps and do nothing for xx time to beat the final encounter in a raid instance... Yeah that game wouldn't even finish installing.
    The dps requirements are indeed lower, but they are in fact still there. Sometimes doing the cookie-cutter strategy isn't the fastest route.
    Last edited by Sedvick; 02-20-2015 at 01:52 PM.

  13. #193
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    You cant argue with american culture its simple with just different europe from US, nothing more nothing less, they got smart bombs n stuff like that some kid can play airplane and bomb people on the other side of the world, they find smart ways only hope is that TRION learns from stuff like this when they make boss fight and don't have a boss enrage depending on a ability to happen, could have made that when 9min came up breath ya dead.

    I believe same dude made the yrlwitch boss which they forgot to add enrage timer, 2 for 2 perhaps he just need some input from the other devs how to avoid issues that create conflict.

    Lets hope we can get a more even play field for tier2 with some bosses that don't require out of the box tactics but within duck range.

    no more ill so im happy good weekend.

  14. #194
    Champion of Telara Stihl's Avatar
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    We've spoken with developers, both in public venues as well as private, and one thing is fairly consistent; their desire to make quality, engaging content.

    The issue most of the community has is not with the strategy itself, which you have defended very soundly, but with the fact it has been accepted by these same individuals as something they intended. There is literally no way you are going to convince me that executing this encounter in this manner was envisioned by the creator as it is wholly incongruous with previous observations.

    In fact the strongest emotion triggered by this entire series of events is a sense of pity for the developer in question, as if I were in their position I would be extremely disheartened to see something I worked on become the main attraction at this three ring circus.
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  15. #195
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    Ok so here we go again:

    There are several components to this story and i m gonna try to stay as neutral as i can.

    First of #Rekt has to admit that doing a damage stop for 1:30 during phase 3 then burn the boss just so you can have another break of 99sec during phase 4 is at best "very odd". It is something previously unseen in Rift and it negates several very important aspects of the fight. And say what you want but it is definitly not intended. But the devs are backing it up, and i dont think they will change that. Also I hope that someone higher up the food-chain takes a serious look at the decisions made.

    Secondly, the fact that this strategy was approved by the Devs before the Kill. I m gonna speculate and say that this happend in 2 possible ways:

    First scenario:
    Quote Originally Posted by Gery View Post
    Instead of asking for example "Are we allowed to intentionally glitch the script so that we don't wipe to enrage for an extra minute and a half, trivialize the dps checks and can ignore the mechanics of second transition?" maybe you asked "Are we allowed to stop dps for a while during the fight?"
    * this quote has been slightly edited to better fit here.

    Second Scenario:

    You asked a dev (I dont know which one), and maybe he did not design the fight, or maybe he didnt fully understand what you were planning to do, but he approved.

    Either way when you asked, the devs still thought the encounter was overtuned and not killable, so they were more likely to accepted "strange stuff".

    However shortly after that we killed the fight without the need of "creative mechanics" and therefore proofed it to be possible.

    The devs now were left in a tricky spot, where they had approved of a strategy that they probably dont like either but had to stand behind what they told you.

    Why you #Rekt as a Guild felt the need to trivialise the final encounter of T1 after it was shown that a legit kill is possible is up for speculation.

    At last I just want to add that the general consens of Rifts raiding-community on this topic, is summed up pretty well by 3 pages of congratulations on the NA #1 to Trinity.

    Kennexx

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