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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: What happened to direct raiding nerfs? Tier 2 question.

  1. #166
    Shield of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by somestuff View Post
    lets be honest...the amount of raiders who have left in the past week for that other game is only getting worse. what could nerfing the current T2/T1 content hurt?
    Trion's short term cash stream.

  2. #167
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    For my and I guess many guilds this is not only making seeing the content less possible but keeping the roster of members turning up every week is getting more difficult when either real life or just game boredom from a lack of progress means constantly plugging spots. Besides joining in for some t3 minis which is easier than all of the t2 bosses except egg tenders IMO, I'd love to see some decent nerfs and start having fun in our raids again.

  3. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanood View Post
    For my and I guess many guilds this is not only making seeing the content less possible but keeping the roster of members turning up every week is getting more difficult when either real life or just game boredom from a lack of progress means constantly plugging spots. Besides joining in for some t3 minis which is easier than all of the t2 bosses except egg tenders IMO, I'd love to see some decent nerfs and start having fun in our raids again.
    Sounds kinda stopgap. What happens when you've cleared the nerfed T2 a few times, then smash your heads on T3?

    Start a "3.0 is coming in a few months, nerf T3 now so more people can see it before it becomes obsolete!" thread?
    So long, and thanks for all the fish~

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonfireSpam View Post
    Sounds kinda stopgap. What happens when you've cleared the nerfed T2 a few times, then smash your heads on T3?

    Start a "3.0 is coming in a few months, nerf T3 now so more people can see it before it becomes obsolete!" thread?
    I don't think he explained it well, but I think he is asking for what everyone else is asking, i.e. when a new tier comes out nerf the prior tier just as trion has done for every tier in the past. It seems like the only reason nerfs are extremely slow this time around is because of the $$ shop. Why nerf the content and make the gear easier to get when people will pay $$ for it?!

    On a side note, I swear, even if you understand what someone is trying to get across you will jump on them if they leave a small opening (see 10000000 other threads by you for further proof of this). It's okay though. I can help you resolve this urge for internet forum supremacy. Personally, I like to just stuff my face with pizza and it helps me calm down. It makes me happy and I stop looking to make snide remarks to people on random internet forums. Once you are fat and addicted to pizza all you care about is getting more pizza down your throat and internet forum supremacy becomes an after thought. Grease is the cure all.

  5. #170
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    DUNGEONS AND INSTANCES
    * Tier 1 Raid Encounters: All enrage timers have been increased by 2 minutes, reducing the DPS required for a kill.
    * Tier 2 Raid Encounters: All enrage tmers have been increased by 1 minute, reducing the DPS required for a kill.
    Um... I think someone missed the point. Thanks for trying though!
    Rianeva@Deepwood

  6. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Choras View Post
    Um... I think someone missed the point. Thanks for trying though!
    This.

    I would like to say thank you to Trion for actually taking a look at this, it's a step in the right direction.

    The main problem that I see with this style of nerf though is it does absolutely nothing to "help out" the top end guilds that just want to get through the content at a faster pace though. Inyr'kta is still going to be too hard of a healing check most likely (along with the derp through the walls of course!) and people will still skip Abominus.

    I think this takes care of some other issues though, and I suppose if any bosses really need special tuning after this it would be Inyr'kta and Abominus alone (maybe Volan to reduce the amount of orbs for arm armor, down to one since many guilds are DPSing it too quickly).

  7. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Attillaa View Post
    I don't think he explained it well, but I think he is asking for what everyone else is asking, i.e. when a new tier comes out nerf the prior tier just as trion has done for every tier in the past. It seems like the only reason nerfs are extremely slow this time around is because of the $$ shop. Why nerf the content and make the gear easier to get when people will pay $$ for it?!

    On a side note, I swear, even if you understand what someone is trying to get across you will jump on them if they leave a small opening (see 10000000 other threads by you for further proof of this). It's okay though. I can help you resolve this urge for internet forum supremacy. Personally, I like to just stuff my face with pizza and it helps me calm down. It makes me happy and I stop looking to make snide remarks to people on random internet forums. Once you are fat and addicted to pizza all you care about is getting more pizza down your throat and internet forum supremacy becomes an after thought. Grease is the cure all.
    Nerfing existing raids isn't going to magically breathe interest back into the members that he's already lost. That ship has sailed.

    I was beating around the bush, being blunt has a tendency to annoy the mods who hand out infractions.

    And I'll pass on the greasy foods, thanks. The interwebs is the only place I get to make snide remarks. I certainly can't make those types of remarks at the people I work with.
    So long, and thanks for all the fish~

  8.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #173
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    Starting tomorrow on 6/11/2014 (barring any unexpected issues), all T1 encounters will have an extra 2 minutes added to their enrage timers. All T2 encounters will have 1 extra minute added to their enrage timers. Their mechanics will otherwise remain unchanged.

    The essence of the problem here is the drastic difference in player skill required between expert dungeons and raids. Even with a largely imperfect combat rotation, you can still win an expert dungeon with the provided gear if you invest the effort to learn the mechanics. In contract, raids (with the current tuning), leave no tolerance for player failure. This, in turn, pressures the raid community to demand outright extraordinary attributes from individual PUG members to compensate.

    Learning to raid is much like learning to play an instrument; you get better with practice and you work your way up from the basics before you're ever able to play actual music. Similarly, learning to design raids is like learning to compose music for an instrument; your ideas are built around what you believe the instrument is capable of. Since Rift has launched the design philosophy has evolved from 'Twinkle Twinkle Little Hylas' into 'Für Maelforge'. This has an unintended consequence for players who started raiding after Storm Legion launched. Players are handed an instrument, briefly told what it can do (in theory) and that they must now use it to play the best song in the world or else the demon will eat their soul.

    While the requirement proposed may seem entirely unreasonable, it isn't without reason that it is requested. There is a requirement for performance in later raid tiers that utilizes the the skills learned from these encounters. That leaves us (as designers) with one of two choices: Gut the raid mechanics (which would be both tragic and self-defeating) or allow players a larger margin of error to learn them. We calculate error from DPS, healing and deaths into the total enrage time of any encounter. It unifies the various possible outcomes into a single number. By increasing that number we expand the number of viable strategies for success.

    Regards,
    Anony
    Last edited by DEV_Anony; 06-10-2014 at 07:46 PM. Reason: Font color.

  9. #174
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    @DEV_Anony
    Thank you most kindly for your condescending words. Too little, Too late. Also your customer support skills need a little work, you have basically insulted 80%+ of your players in one neat little post.

  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by DEV_Anony View Post
    Starting tomorrow on 6/11/2014 (barring any unexpected issues), all T1 encounters will have an extra 2 minutes added to their enrage timers. All T2 encounters will have 1 extra minute added to their enrage timers. Their mechanics will otherwise remain unchanged.

    The essence of the problem here is the drastic difference in player skill required between expert dungeons and raids. Even with a largely imperfect combat rotation, you can still win an expert dungeon with the provided gear if you invest the effort to learn the mechanics. In contract, raids (with the current tuning), leave no tolerance for player failure. This, in turn, pressures the raid community to demand outright extraordinary attributes from individual PUG members to compensate.

    Learning to raid is much like learning to play an instrument; you get better with practice and you work your way up from the basics before you're ever able to play actual music. Similarly, learning to design raids is like learning to compose music for an instrument; your ideas are built around what you believe the instrument is capable of. Since Rift has launched the design philosophy has evolved from 'Twinkle Twinkle Little Hylas' into 'Für Maelforge'. This has an unintended consequence for players who started raiding after Storm Legion launched. Players are handed an instrument, briefly told what it can do (in theory) and that they must now use it to play the best song in the world or else the demon will eat their soul.

    While the requirement proposed may seem entirely unreasonable, it isn't without reason that it is requested. There is a requirement for performance in later raid tiers that utilizes the the skills learned from these encounters. That leaves us (as designers) with one of two choices: Gut the raid mechanics (which would be both tragic and self-defeating) or allow players a larger margin of error to learn them. We calculate error from DPS, healing and deaths into the total enrage time of any encounter. It unifies the various possible outcomes into a single number. By increasing that number we expand the number of viable strategies for success.

    Regards,
    Anony
    In most cases, but certainly not all, I feel that shaving off Boss HP would have been a more effective way of getting to this. There certainly needs to be challenge there for players, but with this style of nerfing you've just further along pushed another issue: Attrition. It's still expecting players to maintain their focus through the fights at the same level as before, just they can do a "little" less DPS.

    People will still skip Inyr'kta because it simply is too difficult to require crystals to be pulled in, a high amount of focus at all times, and the biggest issue of all avoiding laser walls. Guilds will still skip her to go to Greenscale because this changed nothing for those guilds that were not hitting an enrage timer on her.

    If anything, the only thing this allows guilds to do is possibly introduce another healer, which will not save them on most of the problem fights.

    Eggtenders, Proteus, Thraxx, Breaker, Brothers were never the issue.

    Inyr'Kta, Abominus and (possibly) Volan need a closer look at what you can do to bring them in line with the rest of Tier 2. Otherwise they are still worthless for most guilds.

    Thank you for your look into this though, Anony!

  11. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee View Post
    @DEV_Anony
    Thank you most kindly for your condescending words. Too little, Too late. Also your customer support skills need a little work, you have basically insulted 80%+ of your players in one neat little post.
    If you found his words about player skill insulting, his words are not the problem. There is nothing preventing a player from learning their class other than themselves, and we can all be honest here:

    Not a lot of people play at a super high level. Most are mediocre at best, and mediocre simply doesn't cut it on the end portion of Tier 2 raids.

  12.   This is the last Rift Team post in this thread.   #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee View Post
    @DEV_Anony
    Thank you most kindly for your condescending words. Too little, Too late. Also your customer support skills need a little work, you have basically insulted 80%+ of your players in one neat little post.
    If you interpret that to be the case, you may not understand the intent of my message. Let me clarify:

    As designers, it is our responsibility to teach these mechanics and rotations to players interested in learning. I have stated without hesitation that we have not provided workable opportunities for players to obtain the experience they need. That is why we are making a correction now and why we choose to design with this in mind going forward.

    There is absolutely no player fault in the knowledge gap between expert and raid. You cannot know information you've never been given an opportunity to learn.

    Regards,
    Anony

  13. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee View Post
    @DEV_Anony
    Thank you most kindly for your condescending words. Too little, Too late. Also your customer support skills need a little work, you have basically insulted 80%+ of your players in one neat little post.
    If you feel insulted, then use it to fuel your motivation to get better. Generally, this is how the world works. If you're at work and you suck at it, then your boss will tell you that you suck and to fix it or else you lose your job. The same can be applied to video games or any other hobby. Fix your mistakes, learn from your mistakes, and get better in order to win.

    If you don't care enough to try to get better at the game, then that is your problem not a raid design problem.

    Nothing infuriates me more than players who feel entitled to everything just because they're paying money or that "it shouldn't be taken seriously because it's a game."
    Last edited by Ayona; 06-10-2014 at 08:16 PM.

  14. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by DEV_Anony View Post
    Since Rift has launched the design philosophy has evolved from 'Twinkle Twinkle Little Hylas' into 'Für Maelforge'.

    Quote of the Thread

    As for the "complaints" of it still been hard? 'if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen', this seems to be a better approach rather than gutting main mechanics and transition phases, still got to learn them and improve your char and reactions.

    It's better than porting in and an NPC presents you with a list of loot drops just for turning up.

  15. #180
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    The changes are at least 6 months too late, you've lost a large chunk of your raiding players again, due to many factors, lack of pregression being one of them. Nor do these changes address any actual issue with mechanics, bugs or some hard enrage timers still left in without change.(thrax being prime example), this covers the too little aspect as well.

    The condescention is in your wording of your entire post, regardless of intention it comes off as arrogant, informing players that the reason they are not able to kill regulos on a weekly pug isn't due to the 3 mages that keep dying and spawning adds that leave an impossible-to-cleanse amount of de-buffs on the tanks, but it is due to their lack of ability to perform a 32k+ damage rotation with raid t1-t2 gear.

    The problem with the majority of the bosses that cry for nerf (Regulos, Volan, Thrax and Inyr'Kta) is that they leave a new player/pug with 0 room for error and in many cases raid wiping consequences from an error/death, the enrage timer has nothing to do with the community progression on Tier 2(less than 20 currently active guilds have full cleared PBB, more currently have cleared 1 dragon in T3).

    In short, examine some mechanics and fights a little closer and see what the real problems are. Pug raids don't fail Regulos becuase he enrages, and Regulos has been a problem for over a year now.
    Last edited by Killerbee; 06-10-2014 at 08:26 PM.

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