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Thread: Lock the Loot not the Instance please...

  1. #1
    Rift Chaser Learan's Avatar
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    Default Lock the Loot not the Instance please...

    Question for the devs: Is it possible to make the weekly lockouts for the loot/currency and not the instance? This would open up raiding for more players and perhaps increase the quality of the playerbase. Just an idea...

  2. #2
    Ascendant MoonfireSpam's Avatar
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    If you're thinking of the FF14 system where people can only get one piece of loot per lockout, but participate indefinitely... it would probably take a complete rework of their lockout system to do.

    And the payout probably won't be there.Most of the people playing these games are motivated by incentives, of which there would be none in a system where you could raid the instances indefinitely but not acquire anything from them.

    There's the scale to consider too, where as "raids" in FFXIV trends towards less than an hour, some of the higher end raids takes longer than that, even for people who've cleared them many times.

    I don't know about anyone else, but I have no real desire to do PB twice if there's nothing in it for me the second time around. Three times? ... four? kill me now.
    So long, and thanks for all the fish~

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    Rift Chaser Learan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonfireSpam View Post
    If you're thinking of the FF14 system where people can only get one piece of loot per lockout, but participate indefinitely... it would probably take a complete rework of their lockout system to do.

    And the payout probably won't be there.Most of the people playing these games are motivated by incentives, of which there would be none in a system where you could raid the instances indefinitely but not acquire anything from them.

    There's the scale to consider too, where as "raids" in FFXIV trends towards less than an hour, some of the higher end raids takes longer than that, even for people who've cleared them many times.

    I don't know about anyone else, but I have no real desire to do PB twice if there's nothing in it for me the second time around. Three times? ... four? kill me now.
    Some guilds lately have attendance issues and could use help from others that are willing to help but are already locked. But I see your point. I'm sure some players would not run them more than once.

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    Ascendant MoonfireSpam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learan View Post
    Some guilds lately have attendance issues and could use help from others that are willing to help but are already locked. But I see your point. I'm sure some players would not run them more than once.
    Attendance issues will be around forever and always, for every guild.

    That's on the guild leadership to keep up recruitment to at least compensate for the inevitable turnover you will have as well as maintaining a healthy bench so you'll still be able to do things if a few people need the night off.

    I mean, I'm not opposed to the idea. I just don't think it'd be worth the time on their end.
    So long, and thanks for all the fish~

  5. #5
    Rift Master Dasmani's Avatar
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    They could lock just the currencies so that people could farm for a specific drop.

  6. #6
    Plane Walker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dasmani View Post
    They could lock just the currencies so that people could farm for a specific drop.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N493CQgQ_Hk
    Last edited by DMoney817; 04-28-2014 at 02:32 PM.
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  7. #7
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    Someone made this suggestion years ago, I believe RoS and GSB were still current content, and we came to the conclusion that, without SIGNIFICANT reworks, this sort system could be very easily abused. You would have the opportunity, after your main farm night was done, to reenter the instance with 16 mains and 4 alts/backsup/PuGs and blow the content away while giving all of the gear to the only people who could still obtain it; the non-mains.

    While, I understand how noble the idea actually is, in being able to help out a friend/Guild with your main even thought you're already saved, it just wouldn't work.

    Sorry.
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  8. #8
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Livandria View Post
    Someone made this suggestion years ago, I believe RoS and GSB were still current content, and we came to the conclusion that, without SIGNIFICANT reworks, this sort system could be very easily abused. You would have the opportunity, after your main farm night was done, to reenter the instance with 16 mains and 4 alts/backsup/PuGs and blow the content away while giving all of the gear to the only people who could still obtain it; the non-mains.

    While, I understand how noble the idea actually is, in being able to help out a friend/Guild with your main even thought you're already saved, it just wouldn't work.

    Sorry.
    Why is this a problem? You can already do this today.

    Guild X mandates that everyone has alts. X runs the instance once with half mains and half alts. All mains get big upgrades, alts get discards (but coincidentally get geared in the same tier of gear, due to marks + discards, not BiS, but good enough to do the next tier when it comes out). X runs again with all the people who were on mains swapping to their alts and vice versa.

    This is something you'd do in an EXTREMELY competitive environment to get as many drops per person as possible before the next bit of content is released, and if gear were actually the deciding factor between guilds.

    Being so opposed to the idea means assuming those cases are true. But this community is not that competitive -- otherwise we'd be killing bosses on PTS before they reach live. And at the same time, gear is not that important. Player skill is orders of magnitude more important than gear. The only important things are: having enough hit and having as much endurance as possible.

    I don't understand that there is a negative. But the positives are fairly obvious. It means bench players can come in and do content. It means players who are bored can run instances with pugs, meaning many pugs would likely have a lot more carries, making pugs more successful and making it overall easier for people to get into raids (more of them) and get geared from them (without a guild and a strict raiding schedule). It also means people can learn fights more quickly and learn their specs more quickly, by having a venue for testing things out rather than waiting for raid night, when really you want performance, not experimentation.

    So easily: make weekly quests for each boss in each instance. Have them give the marks. Otherwise the bosses just drop loot as usual, and instance locks go away, or they could do something like prevent additional hearts/RICs/relics from dropping if anyone in the raid has a lock, so you can't just farm relics 24/7. I'm not even convinced that's an issue. You can still share instance IDs, so nobody can "bookmark" an instance while other people clear it, then have everyone zone in to just kill the end boss. So you'd have to clear every boss in an instance to get at the good stuff, and if you're willing to commit that kind of time, why not get rewarded?

    That seems like a relatively small amount of work. But I highly doubt Trion would ever do this because it would make it easier to get gear (slightly) for everyone, and Trion seems obsessed with keeping people on the treadmill.

    ..

    Even though we have people who can't even get upgrades still clearing T2 weekly.

    And T1. And experts.

    It's all a matter of ensuring the rewards make repeating content worthwhile.
    Last edited by JustAnEngineer; 04-28-2014 at 04:00 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustAnEngineer View Post
    Even though we have people who can't even get upgrades still clearing T2 weekly.

    And T1. And experts.

    It's all a matter of ensuring the rewards make repeating content worthwhile.
    If you're clearing T2 regularly, upgrades will come. People do repeat the content, hoping for that one BiS weapon to drop that they've been waiting for forever. Changing to a loot-lockout system wouldn't change the time it takes for a single character to get certain gear. Changing to a currency-lockout system with infinite loot chances would simply let people kill ultane 100 more times in a much smaller time frame and still not get the pants they want. Also, you most likely won't be running it with the same people if you do it every night, which means rolling against even more people who want the same item, which would lead to much more frustration and burnout for lots of people.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMoney817 View Post
    If you're clearing T2 regularly, upgrades will come.
    We've more kills on T2 bosses than any other guild. Still have items that haven't dropped. Now consider people who haven't been farming all of T2 since early November last year.

    Never got an AMoP. Killed the boss 35-40 times.

    Quote Originally Posted by DMoney817 View Post
    People do repeat the content, hoping for that one BiS weapon to drop that they've been waiting for forever.
    But that's a boring reason to repeat content. Why not because it's fun? Why not to play with more people? Why not for practice, or just for general entertainment?

    Being forced to go in hardcore with a guild group and never be able to do things like achieve runs until the content is stale or without annoying people is stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by DMoney817 View Post
    Changing to a loot-lockout system wouldn't change the time it takes for a single character to get certain gear.
    It would certainly change the time it takes for people to be geared in a tier, and would improve the chances you have at getting drops you want.

    Quote Originally Posted by DMoney817 View Post
    Changing to a currency-lockout system with infinite loot chances would simply let people kill ultane 100 more times in a much smaller time frame and still not get the pants they want.
    If someone kills Ultane 100 more times, they'd most likely get the pants they want. And why not? Do you have 100*40 = 66 hours of straight hardcore grind assuming fairly rapid clears? Do you have 9 other people willing to do the same?

    But you could kill it a few more times per week, with random pugs. More chances is more betterer.

    Quote Originally Posted by DMoney817 View Post
    Also, you most likely won't be running it with the same people if you do it every night, which means rolling against even more people who want the same item, which would lead to much more frustration and burnout for lots of people.
    You currently roll against alts. Alts are the only way to run an instance more than once per week right now (and is a lot of filler in pugs). Alts need more gear than mains, so the problem is strictly smaller.

  11. #11
    Plane Walker
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    I don't roll against alts, and if people try to take gear from someones main for their alt they're an *******. (This is assuming it's a full guild run)
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustAnEngineer View Post
    Why is this a problem? You can already do this today.

    Guild X mandates that everyone has alts. X runs the instance once with half mains and half alts. All mains get big upgrades, alts get discards (but coincidentally get geared in the same tier of gear, due to marks + discards, not BiS, but good enough to do the next tier when it comes out). X runs again with all the people who were on mains swapping to their alts and vice versa.
    What you are describing is 40(fourty) characters getting 2 raids worth of loot, which makes sense and is exactly how it's supposed to be, if they are capable of clearing the content, be they mains or alts.

    What however could be done with the system suggested by the OP is something like this: Bob, Joe and Harry are all mages and are after the same staff. On Wed 19people+Bob clear the zone, Joe and Harry sitting out. On Thurs SAME 19 chars+Joe clear the zone and on Friday same 19+Harry do. As a result of the above, 22 characters get 3 shots at the staff instead of one they are supposed to get. Now that doesn't make sense, as the gearing up pacing is there for a reason.
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  13. #13
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMoney817 View Post
    I don't roll against alts, and if people try to take gear from someones main for their alt they're an *******. (This is assuming it's a full guild run)
    So you and your guild = the entire playerbase?

    With this system implemented, PB would already be pugged publicly. Given that your guild can't even clear easy instances, it's interesting that you favor a system that limits people to doing only what their guild is capable of doing, and which forces pugs necessarily to be multiple tiers behind the curve.

    And yes, if someone can play their alt better than they can play your main, even in a guild run, they should be able to buy the piece with DKP or get it via loot council or whatever system you use.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fand View Post
    What you are describing is 40(fourty) characters getting 2 raids worth of loot, which makes sense and is exactly how it's supposed to be, if they are capable of clearing the content, be they mains or alts.

    What however could be done with the system suggested by the OP is something like this: Bob, Joe and Harry are all mages and are after the same staff. On Wed 19people+Bob clear the zone, Joe and Harry sitting out. On Thurs SAME 19 chars+Joe clear the zone and on Friday same 19+Harry do. As a result of the above, 22 characters get 3 shots at the staff instead of one they are supposed to get. Now that doesn't make sense, as the gearing up pacing is there for a reason.
    No, it's 20 people getting 2 raids worth of loot. It reduces contention. The 20 alts are fillers. This is what people have done in hardcore WoW progression to gear as quickly as possible.

    And why is this "gearing up pacing" there for a reason? What reason? Everyone seemingly staunchly against this concept has never at any point ever been in full BiS gear. Those who have don't mind the idea.

    We get to the point where most of our guild can only get maybe ~10-20 stats in upgrades total, or less, and clear everything in 1 night. There's nothing left to do in the game at that point since the only fun content in the game is completely locked, and playing on alts suffers from the same gearing problem. It's unlikely any guild has a full alt group that runs and tries to clear the same content, so your alt is in another guild, which is almost certainly less progressed, or just runs through pug runs.

    This lockout system is actually damaging the replayability of the content. The #1 most important thing for games to be lasting is replayability. If the ultimate goal were to have people play the game for *AS LONG AS POSSIBLE* and you could prove that lockouts, in fact, kept players playing the game longer (a dubious claim, as it's patently false demonstrated by thousands of other games at this point), it might be a good idea to use such a system if your earnings are time based.

    Rift is F2P. Keeping people from gearing up for 8 months doesn't make Trion a single penny.

    Besides. Look at experts. They have terrible rewards at this point, but people still do them. Lots of people. All the time. Why? Because there is no lockout.

    The real reason this would never happen is because Trion wants you to either get gear incredibly slowly, or pay them $500 for a weapon. I'm glad they promise "no tricks, no traps" yet intentionally use broken systems that you can pay your way around. The worst part is that the game retains a lack of replayability, and pugs remain far behind, so even if you pay for gear, you're never going to get your money's worth. That basically elevates this to a scam.

  14. #14
    Plane Walker
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustAnEngineer View Post
    So you and your guild = the entire playerbase?
    Not sure why you think I meant the entire player base. You quoted me specifically and said I roll against alts when I don't, and that is exactly what I said, I don't roll against alts. I really do not understand how you could think I meant the entire player base.

    Quote Originally Posted by JustAnEngineer View Post
    With this system implemented, PB would already be pugged publicly. Given that your guild can't even clear easy instances, it's interesting that you favor a system that limits people to doing only what their guild is capable of doing, and which forces pugs necessarily to be multiple tiers behind the curve.
    I didn't know still progressing=can't. That's unfair to assume. I think we've had 2 nights on Inyr, if your guild killed it in 2 nights of progression I'll suck all of your ****s.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMoney817 View Post
    Not sure why you think I meant the entire player base. You quoted me specifically and said I roll against alts when I don't, and that is exactly what I said, I don't roll against alts. I really do not understand how you could think I meant the entire player base.
    I don't PvP, therefore PvP should be removed.

    Quote Originally Posted by DMoney817 View Post
    I didn't know still progressing=can't. That's unfair to assume. I think we've had 2 nights on Inyr, if your guild killed it in 2 nights of progression I'll suck all of your ****s.
    I'm just pointing it out. There are tons of guilds that can't progress fully through IG/PB, or that are still trying. Greenscale and Akylios are easier to progress through than Inyr if you have the endurance and the healers for it, and give better rewards (as do their minis, which are also very easy).

    What prevents anyone who's doing the fights from also doing pugs or helping out other guilds progress is this lockout system. Further, it also means that pugs can be evil. Don't like someone? Let them get locked to the first boss, then kick them from the raid.

    This entire system is just a poor copy of a bad idea with 0 thought put behind a better implementation. If the only negative of removing every single problem it causes is that some people might grind out gear, that seems insignificant. Gear isn't the end-all in Rift. Technical mastery and perfect execution is. Nothing is more fun than getting a perfect rotation in on a fight with perfect mechanic RNG, while having above average crit RNG, etc. Or being able to solo heal fights. There's so much more to raiding than getting a drop. Holding onto a broken system because "the drops" seems very shortsighted.

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