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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Problems with the Drop-rates of Warden Thrax and Salvarola

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Problems with the Drop-rates of Warden Thrax and Salvarola

    1. Introduction

    With T3 on the horizon, (and a series of very improbable drops for Thrax) I decided to look at how loot (more specifically, pieces of loot with +78 hit) are distributed in Storm Legion's second tier of raiding (T2) and was very depressed at what I discovered.

    I created a small program to simulate 1 million guilds farming Thrax or Salvarola until each and every member of the raid had the piece they wanted from it (Ranged Weapon and Ring #2 respectively). In this simulation:
    • Tanks would not be OK getting DPS drops and vice versa.
    • It is assumed the members of the raid will never change from week to week (not possible).
    • Mage Tank gear is not considered.
    • Each item has an equal chance of dropping (something I very much doubt, see below).
    • Neither Fae Yule nor x2 Loot Week bonus boxes are considered.

    2. How Loot Functions in T2 Content

    20-Man Content

    In PBB and IG (for the most part), bosses drop 2 items each, one for item slot "A", and another for slot "B"

    This means that usually, you have a 1/7 chance of the item you want dropping from a boss in any given week. This does not apply to Volan relic weapons (1/9 chance), or Abominus relic weapons (1/8).

    10-Man Content
    • The first 2 bosses, when their loot tables are combined, will drop 3 items per class, per roll (boot/gloves/belt, for each of the 7 roles currently itemized). I don't bother running statistics on these pieces because they are very easily supplemented with "Rift Walkers" gear and 20 man drops.
    • Salvarola is more like the 20 man bosses, he has 7 rings and 7 necks in his loot table, but sadly he will only drop 1 item per kill from the entire set of 14. (more on this below).
    • Ultane drops 1 item from a table containing 7 relic up-gradable leggings, and 5 trinkets (with no decent melee trinkets being actually itemized for some reason).

    Current Bugs

    An issue I often hear discussed in regards to T2 drops (and have experienced with my guild extensively) is one of repetition. Several guilds have complained about receiving the exact same drop over and over again from a T2 boss, something that shouldn't happen if all the items have an equal chance of dropping.

    For example. out of our first 9 kills of Warden Thrax, we have seen the "Eternal Jailer's Shackles" 6 times, and the "Warden's Retribution" 5 times. Assuming that all the ranged weapons and gloves have an equal chance of dropping, the odds of that happening are very unlikely.

    We have seen similar trends with several of the other T2 bosses and when you combine that with the similar reports from other guilds (namely in regards to Volan Relics), one can no longer assume that T2 loot is dropping correctly.

    3. Hit Drops and entry into T3 Content

    With T3 right on the horizon, it is important to keep in mind what a guild needs to be able to being work on it. The hit requirement for T3 content is currently set at 620 (for a 100% hit chance). This means that each and every player is the raid needs all of their hit pieces from T2, though with hit runes they could potentially stand to be missing a few, at the cost of some stats.

    At first, getting 620 hit seems rather easy:
    • Gloves are available from GA, Thrax, and the Rift Store.
    • Helmets are available from Volan and the Rift Store.
    • Necklaces are available from Salvarola, Eggtenders and Brothers.
    • Ring #1 is available from both Breaker X1 and Krizzix
    • Weapons drop from Brothers, Proteus, Volan, Inyr'Kta, and Abominus

    But now we get to the main reason behind this post, the two slots that are itemized so poorly, there is almost no chance of a guild entering T3 without at least a few raid members having hit runes on:

    Salvarola and Ring #2

    Every role's second T2 ring will drop for Salvarola in GA.

    As stated above, he drops 1 item each kill from a drop table of 14 items, of these 14 items, 7 are rings. Using the simulation, I found that on average: it would take a total of 58 kills for a static group of 10 players to all receive the ring for their main spec from Salvarola.

    58 weeks. That's more than a year of clearing 3/4 GA every single week with the exact sane 10 players, which is just not feasible. According to TopOfRift (a raid kill tracking website), the first Salvarola kill was on June 16th, 2013. That was ~42 weeks ago. To make matters worse, many T2 guilds did not down Salvarola until his nerfs back in December, meaning that they have had much less time to try and get their rings.

    It is worth noting that there is nothing stopping players from just using the Breaker ring of their partner class (Clerics/Mages, Rogues/Warriors) but I imagine T3 will be balanced around you using loot actually meant for your class.

    Thrax and Ranged Weapons

    Ranged weapons are the true problem for hit in T2.

    As per the general case for 20-man bosses in T2, Warden Thrax will always drop 1 of 7 ranged weapons when killed. Using the simulation, 1 million guilds killed Thrax until each and every member of their static 20 man group had their main spec ranged weapon from Thrax. This took the average guild 46 weeks to do.

    Drawing on statistics from TopOfRift once more, we can see that the first Thrax kill was on October 3rd, 2013. ~26 weeks ago. This means that had Thrax dropped 2 ranged weapons each kill from the very start, a few guilds might actually have all their ranged weapons around now.

    Taking into account that only ~40 guilds have killed Thrax at all, it is more or less guaranteed that very few guilds will enter T3 with all 20 members having a ranged weapon. (Unless guilds recruit specifically for people who have their ranged weapon already).

    Solutions
    • Rings: I would highly advise Trion to release T2 rings on the Rift Store for purchase with Frozen Eclipse Stones, just prior to the launch of T3. This would allow most raiders to actually use 2 rings meant for their class rather than just 1 and a hit rune or 1 and a ring meant for another class.
    • Ranged Weapon: I would advise doubling the number of ranged weapons dropped by Warden Thrax each week, this would drop the average number of kills needed on him from 46 to 23, allowing guilds to get the required hit for T3 in a much more reasonable time-frame.

    4. Loot Going Forward

    In closing, keep in mind that these statistics will all change once Mage tank gear is implemented, the 1/7 chance that is the current staple of T2 drops will become 1/8. Furthermore, T3 is going to be very interesting to start, with only 4 "Bosses" and 3 "Mini-bosses", itemizing drop tables is going to give someone at Trion a headache.

    5. TL;DR
    • Trion needs to put T2 rings on the Rift Store prior to or at the launch of T3
    • A second ranged weapon needs to drop somewhere in T2, or one needs to be available on the Rift Store prior to or at the launch of T3. (The easiest solution would be to make Thrax drop 2 instead of 1).
    • Trion should most likely take a look at the "RNG" behind drop in T2 as it seems bugged. (My unqualified opinion is that the RNG seed is being tied to something it shouldn't be, resulting in absurd repetition.)
    Tsukasu@Faeblight, [4/4] GA, [3/3] IG, [3/5] PBB

  2. #2
    Plane Touched ATFMorgan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsukasu1 View Post
    TLDR
    If i recall, this happened when the majority was entering T2, not enough hit pieces from previous bosses with large loot tables. GA released, i was at 496 hit? Still tanked the entire zone without 520, hell, even 500. I agree on the point of having rings being sold for ESM in the store....Thrax loot table is a laugh and a half, same Rogue DPS bow and Warrior gloves all the time, Hooo-ray
    Last edited by ATFMorgan; 04-12-2014 at 10:02 AM.
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  3. #3
    Rift Disciple Yuukii's Avatar
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    What the above poster said, You don't need 520 hit to these bosses.

    Allowing bad RNG you still will be able to do these new raids
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    8/8, like that even matters anymore..

  4. #4
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yuukii View Post
    What the above poster said, You don't need 520 hit to these bosses.

    Allowing bad RNG you still will be able to do these new raids
    While I won't argue that you don't need 620 hit to progress in T3, the main point of the post is that drops that take a raid 46 and 58 weeks of straight farm to get (with a static group), are not viable.
    Tsukasu@Faeblight, [4/4] GA, [3/3] IG, [3/5] PBB

  5. #5
    Ascendant Boase's Avatar
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    They most likely will put a 78 hit ring in the store for summerfest like they did last year. The game also has hit runes for a reason.
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  6. #6
    Plane Walker Axarion's Avatar
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    A relatively simple solution would be to merge tank & dps/heals drops;

    Instead of dropping a ring with tank stats it drops an upgradeable "broken" ring that can be upgraded to either dps/heals or tank stats.

    With all classes being able to tank this would cut the amount of drops in half.

  7. #7
    Rift Disciple Yuukii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsukasu1 View Post
    While I won't argue that you don't need 620 hit to progress in T3, the main point of the post is that drops that take a raid 46 and 58 weeks of straight farm to get (with a static group), are not viable.
    Meh just use a tank weapon or weapon of your type, No reason a mage cant use a cleric wand for hit, Hit runes exist. Yeah Thrax' loot table sucks but no big deal, I guess Itemization guy who puts loot on bosses will learn from the many complaints.
    Primalist of
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    8/8, like that even matters anymore..

  8. #8
    Ascendant MoonfireSpam's Avatar
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    Whatever gets you the hit you need is what you'd use.

    On nearly every occasion, we had people using tank, or even other class' items to fill the hit requirement at the launch of nearly every tier. It works just fine.

    Heck, given the current state of the game, my rogue tank is sporting a spiffy warrior tank block mace and I want a cleric tank ring.

    Why? Because its better, but mostly because i can use them.

    The "RNG" this game uses would appear to use some player determinable factor, either tied to the person/class zoning into an instance or maybe even the server time.

    Statistically significant proof of what I said is not possible for me to provide, but at least anecdotally it'd explain the "Guild X gets item A all the time" and "Guild Y gets item B all the time" thing that appears to be happening.
    So long, and thanks for all the fish~

  9. #9
    Plane Touched BelZoness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yuukii View Post
    Meh just use a tank weapon or weapon of your type, No reason a mage cant use a cleric wand for hit, Hit runes exist. Yeah Thrax' loot table sucks but no big deal, I guess Itemization guy who puts loot on bosses will learn from the many complaints.
    Has there been a tier where itemization wasn't complaint-worthy?

    Obviously as players we'll always find things about which to nitpick, but SL T2 seems particularly awkward, especially compared to tier 1.
    Last edited by BelZoness; 04-12-2014 at 07:10 PM.
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  10. #10
    Ascendant MoonfireSpam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BelZoness View Post
    Has there been a tier where itemization wasn't complaint-worthy?

    Obviously as players we'll always find things about which to nitpick, but SL T2 seems particularly awkward, especially compared to tier 1.
    iunno, I found T2 to actually be quite a bit better compared to T1, where they had added 2x 65 hit event rings and an event necklace, as well as a complete set of upgradeable event weapons.

    But that's a off-hand comment. Haven't actually looked at how long it took me to get what.
    So long, and thanks for all the fish~

  11. #11
    RIFT Guide Writer Soulshield's Avatar
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    T3: 4 minis: Rings+Necklaces+Belts+Gloves+Feet

    4 bosses: Shoulders, Helmet, Legs, Chest and ofc weapons(and trinket?)

    This would be my guess ;)
    Last edited by Soulshield; 04-12-2014 at 10:31 PM.

  12. #12
    Plane Touched BelZoness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonfireSpam View Post
    iunno, I found T2 to actually be quite a bit better compared to T1, where they had added 2x 65 hit event rings and an event necklace, as well as a complete set of upgradeable event weapons.

    But that's a off-hand comment. Haven't actually looked at how long it took me to get what.
    It might be anecdotal or a function of the raid-composition curse but I remember the process of getting hit geared for Tier 2 to be pretty simple as a dps/heal cleric, barring the Typhiria neck. Our warriors in TI had a harder time getting their guns though.
    aw
    Necks were definitely a nightmare tier 1 if you needed it off Typhiria- I don't think Moat ever got his T1 neck after having done TDQ every week since week 1 and I only saw the neck drop once.
    Zones@Sargeras
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  13. #13
    Shield of Telara Aeryle's Avatar
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    Trion should put 3 item per boss in r20 and 2 item per boss in r10.

    Trion should put more than two T2SL rings per classes avalaible IG (make a ring buyable for frozen stones in the Rift store is the best solution).

    Trion shoud nerf some bosses in T2 to allow guild to progress faster in T2, and be ready for T3.
    (suggestions:
    -Lower HP of trash mob
    -Lower HP od X1's adds (especially thoses who are one the core accessible with TP)
    -Lower damage of twins, and their HP.
    -Lower Volan Damage
    -Lower HP of eggtender (this boss is weak, and ininteressant)
    -Increase the burst'time when proteus is stun.
    -Increase the time Thrax take to cast execution.
    -Lower inyr'kta HP and damage.
    ect...)
    I don't really wan't to see hunge nerf to content, but i prefer see some nerf than having a new content and not be able to do it because of a lack of time to di it before 3.0.


    Trion should lower the precision requirement for mini-bosses in T3 and put Rings, Necklaces, Belts, Gloves and weapons on them.


    We don't know when the 3.0 will come, but in all cases, 3.0 will come in 2014, so the delay to finish T2 and do all the T3 content is very short (considering that many guilds haven't finished T2 yet), so Trion have to do something to allowed player to progress faster in T2 content and be ready for T3 content.
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  14. #14
    Ascendant radiomaryja's Avatar
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    with these great suggestions, why don't you ask for all loot to be either mailed to you or be available for fes/credits? :F
    any decent guild should be doing proteus in 2 stuns anyway - if you need stun duration longer you are doing something very wrong.
    lower dmg of twins? what dmg?
    etc, etc...
    loot tables needs to be done better, its as simple as that. i agree with having ring available for fes tho, it's a workaround for broken drops.

  15. #15
    Rift Disciple Yuukii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by radiomaryja View Post
    with these great suggestions, why don't you ask for all loot to be either mailed to you or be available for fes/credits? :F
    any decent guild should be doing proteus in 2 stuns anyway - if you need stun duration longer you are doing something very wrong.
    lower dmg of twins? what dmg?
    etc, etc...
    loot tables needs to be done better, its as simple as that. i agree with having ring available for fes tho, it's a workaround for broken drops.
    peeps want it easy ;3.

    I think a piece of loot in every slot available for FES would be a good addition, Similar to how you can get T1 weapons with ESM's.

    Don't think they should be upgradable to relic(Unless a Heart of plane Breaker is necessary) or better than drops though.
    Primalist of
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    8/8, like that even matters anymore..

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