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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Unlimited PTS Testing

  1. #91
    Champion Noge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellshound38 View Post
    didnt voodoo say that too



    .. And i probably played more then you have.

    Oh ultima online how the hardcore raiding community made you flourish.

    oh guild wars 1, you didn't sell lots of copies, because you forgot about the hardcore raiders.

    oh ff 11 .. clearly the most successful game
    Yeah, because games that are 10 years old are really relevant to the current 2013 market.

    Stop editing your posts you look stupid.

  2. #92
    Rift Chaser DarkFalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    And, HK also had super limited testing. In addition to that, all kinds of remarks were made regarding folks playing favorites.

    I was there, I remember the terrible bugs. With the rose colored glasses on it was a great experience. In reality living it, raiding it at the high end, was pretty terrible.

    How many people quit the game due to that? A ton, I've seen the data. I've seen the drop off curve relative to folks that engaged in the content at that time. How many purgers got yelled at by their entire guild for screwing up on the original version of Siccaron? How possible was Akylios on his release?

    ~Daglar
    Daglar I have one really burning question that could use some answering. With UNLIMITED (Key word here) testing on the PTS ~month or more before the raid hits live why should raiders play anywhere but the PTS for the progression stuff (even non-hardcore guilds enjoy watching it)? I don't think anyone here's idea of fun is farming content for 3 months waiting for something new to hit PTS to do it with the given gear from PTS (no farming required just hit up a merchant which then brings up the question of why do anything on live all over again if you really are there to try and do it before strats and stuff are made public detailing everything in the fight and what to use)
    Tres <Wipe>
    WOLFSBANE

  3. #93
    Ascendant Vioarr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellshound38 View Post
    didnt voodoo say that too



    .. And i probably played more then you have.

    Oh ultima online how the hardcore raiding community made you flourish.

    oh guild wars 1, you didn't sell lots of copies, because you forgot about the hardcore raiders.

    oh ff 11 .. clearly the most successful game

    I hardcore raided in a MUD!
    Bush senior was the most qualified man to ever win the presidency of the United States and ended up being a mediocre president. The quantity of your experience doesn't speak to the quality or your understanding of a complex concept such as the symbiosis between casuals and hardcores.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vioarr View Post
    Bush senior was the most qualified man to ever win the presidency of the United States and ended up being a mediocre president. The quantity of your experience doesn't speak to the quality or your understanding of a complex concept such as the symbiosis between casuals and hardcores.
    agreed, hence why his point that this might be my first mmo was both incorrect and pointless.
    Thank you for agreeing with me.

  5. #95
    Ascendant Vioarr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellshound38 View Post
    agreed, hence why his point that this might be my first mmo was both incorrect and pointless.
    Thank you for agreeing with me.
    I'm not going to get sucked into arguing with you for three pages about how the context of your posts as a whole viewed in sequence is more relevant than taking a single post you made and limiting the scope of my response solely to the content of that post with no regard for anything previous,

  6. #96
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    As I see it, Trion needs the dungeons tested. What we have learned from the past is that the closed testing by 'uber' guilds has not given the community bug free instances. We can argue the degree of the bugs in another thread, but they existed. Trion is now forced to try something else to achieve the goal of bug free instances.

    This can be acheived by either going to closed internal testing, continuing what they did with tweaks, or open testing. Each has it's pros and cons.

    If they go internal testing, they will not get quantity, they will not get diversity in composition. This, imo, will open up new undocumented features.

    If they go closed testing, they will keep the community splintered by those that complain of the haves and have nots. This may placate those that think they are the best and drive the subs, but the reality is that they are a minor player in the player base. This would also require tweaks so that the process would result in bug free instances.

    If they go open testing, they will get quantity. There is a big unknown and that is the quality. This process is akin to the open source software model. The more eyes that look at it, the higher the quality the code will be. Sure there will be a lot of people looking at it, some will just browse, but some will actually help. This model works well.

    For me, and this will shock Vioarr, I do not think a window that is open 7x24 would be wise. However, I do realize that the game has raiding schedules that players adhere to. If Trion were to have a HK style zone, they could open a wing for testing on days other than reset days. Open up a wing for two days during the week for people to test. Then open up another wing for two days for people to test. And of course, open the third wing for two days for people to test. I sincerely hope though that they leave the Akylios to internal testing and off PTS. After the week is up, they will have a bunch of feedback for the devs to go back to work. They can rinse and repeat this process until the encounter is bug free. Now, this will still NOT stop the instance from being cleared the first night it goes live. The only way to do that is to gate it. This can be done with resit, opening dates, hit, etc. Imo, this will accomplish the goal of bug free (at least limited) instances.

    And I do agree with Daglar, HK in hindsight was nice, but at launch it was buggy and annoying. We tested on numerous occasions and we did see changes between iterations, but the bugs did decrease, just not to the point it was close to zero. Rune King anyone

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daayou View Post
    As I see it, Trion needs the dungeons tested. What we have learned from the past is that the closed testing by 'uber' guilds has not given the community bug free instances. We can argue the degree of the bugs in another thread, but they existed. Trion is now forced to try something else to achieve the goal of bug free instances.

    This can be acheived by either going to closed internal testing, continuing what they did with tweaks, or open testing. Each has it's pros and cons.

    If they go internal testing, they will not get quantity, they will not get diversity in composition. This, imo, will open up new undocumented features.

    If they go closed testing, they will keep the community splintered by those that complain of the haves and have nots. This may placate those that think they are the best and drive the subs, but the reality is that they are a minor player in the player base. This would also require tweaks so that the process would result in bug free instances.

    If they go open testing, they will get quantity. There is a big unknown and that is the quality. This process is akin to the open source software model. The more eyes that look at it, the higher the quality the code will be. Sure there will be a lot of people looking at it, some will just browse, but some will actually help. This model works well.

    For me, and this will shock Vioarr, I do not think a window that is open 7x24 would be wise. However, I do realize that the game has raiding schedules that players adhere to. If Trion were to have a HK style zone, they could open a wing for testing on days other than reset days. Open up a wing for two days during the week for people to test. Then open up another wing for two days for people to test. And of course, open the third wing for two days for people to test. I sincerely hope though that they leave the Akylios to internal testing and off PTS. After the week is up, they will have a bunch of feedback for the devs to go back to work. They can rinse and repeat this process until the encounter is bug free. Now, this will still NOT stop the instance from being cleared the first night it goes live. The only way to do that is to gate it. This can be done with resit, opening dates, hit, etc. Imo, this will accomplish the goal of bug free (at least limited) instances.

    And I do agree with Daglar, HK in hindsight was nice, but at launch it was buggy and annoying. We tested on numerous occasions and we did see changes between iterations, but the bugs did decrease, just not to the point it was close to zero. Rune King anyone
    What shocks me is people disagreeing with me on this subject because I'm right.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daayou View Post
    As I see it, Trion needs the dungeons tested. What we have learned from the past is that the closed testing by 'uber' guilds has not given the community bug free instances. We can argue the degree of the bugs in another thread, but they existed. Trion is now forced to try something else to achieve the goal of bug free instances.

    This can be acheived by either going to closed internal testing, continuing what they did with tweaks, or open testing. Each has it's pros and cons.

    If they go internal testing, they will not get quantity, they will not get diversity in composition. This, imo, will open up new undocumented features.

    If they go closed testing, they will keep the community splintered by those that complain of the haves and have nots. This may placate those that think they are the best and drive the subs, but the reality is that they are a minor player in the player base. This would also require tweaks so that the process would result in bug free instances.

    If they go open testing, they will get quantity. There is a big unknown and that is the quality. This process is akin to the open source software model. The more eyes that look at it, the higher the quality the code will be. Sure there will be a lot of people looking at it, some will just browse, but some will actually help. This model works well.

    For me, and this will shock Vioarr, I do not think a window that is open 7x24 would be wise. However, I do realize that the game has raiding schedules that players adhere to. If Trion were to have a HK style zone, they could open a wing for testing on days other than reset days. Open up a wing for two days during the week for people to test. Then open up another wing for two days for people to test. And of course, open the third wing for two days for people to test. I sincerely hope though that they leave the Akylios to internal testing and off PTS. After the week is up, they will have a bunch of feedback for the devs to go back to work. They can rinse and repeat this process until the encounter is bug free. Now, this will still NOT stop the instance from being cleared the first night it goes live. The only way to do that is to gate it. This can be done with resit, opening dates, hit, etc. Imo, this will accomplish the goal of bug free (at least limited) instances.

    And I do agree with Daglar, HK in hindsight was nice, but at launch it was buggy and annoying. We tested on numerous occasions and we did see changes between iterations, but the bugs did decrease, just not to the point it was close to zero. Rune King anyone
    I think you're mixing up correlation and causation in regards to buggy encounters. "Oh closed testing, buggy encounters, causation!" Nope. The 2 main causes for buggy encounters are A) Devs ignoring feedback. This has happened time and time again, bugs are reported, and they are not fixed going to live. B) Live servers are different than PTS/Internal. You could have open testing on the PTS server and everything is fine and dandy. Then you put it on live and BOOM, Infinite Storm again and again and again.

    I won't argue that closed testing can be correlated with buggy encounters, but again, it's not a main cause.
    Atyr - Executor of Addiction

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daayou View Post
    As I see it, Trion needs the dungeons tested. What we have learned from the past is that the closed testing by 'uber' guilds has not given the community bug free instances. We can argue the degree of the bugs in another thread, but they existed. Trion is now forced to try something else to achieve the goal of bug free instances.

    This can be acheived by either going to closed internal testing, continuing what they did with tweaks, or open testing. Each has it's pros and cons.

    If they go internal testing, they will not get quantity, they will not get diversity in composition. This, imo, will open up new undocumented features.

    If they go closed testing, they will keep the community splintered by those that complain of the haves and have nots. This may placate those that think they are the best and drive the subs, but the reality is that they are a minor player in the player base. This would also require tweaks so that the process would result in bug free instances.

    If they go open testing, they will get quantity. There is a big unknown and that is the quality. This process is akin to the open source software model. The more eyes that look at it, the higher the quality the code will be. Sure there will be a lot of people looking at it, some will just browse, but some will actually help. This model works well.

    For me, and this will shock Vioarr, I do not think a window that is open 7x24 would be wise. However, I do realize that the game has raiding schedules that players adhere to. If Trion were to have a HK style zone, they could open a wing for testing on days other than reset days. Open up a wing for two days during the week for people to test. Then open up another wing for two days for people to test. And of course, open the third wing for two days for people to test. I sincerely hope though that they leave the Akylios to internal testing and off PTS. After the week is up, they will have a bunch of feedback for the devs to go back to work. They can rinse and repeat this process until the encounter is bug free. Now, this will still NOT stop the instance from being cleared the first night it goes live. The only way to do that is to gate it. This can be done with resit, opening dates, hit, etc. Imo, this will accomplish the goal of bug free (at least limited) instances.

    And I do agree with Daglar, HK in hindsight was nice, but at launch it was buggy and annoying. We tested on numerous occasions and we did see changes between iterations, but the bugs did decrease, just not to the point it was close to zero. Rune King anyone
    you are very mistaken if you think trion is doing this for less buggy encounters.

  10. #100
    Rift Chaser DarkFalls's Avatar
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    Why are people still arguing over the open part as far as i could tell its the Unlimited part thats causing issues @_@.
    Tres <Wipe>
    WOLFSBANE

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atyr View Post
    I think you're mixing up correlation and causation in regards to buggy encounters. "Oh closed testing, buggy encounters, causation!" Nope. The 2 main causes for buggy encounters are A) Devs ignoring feedback. This has happened time and time again, bugs are reported, and they are not fixed going to live. B) Live servers are different than PTS/Internal. You could have open testing on the PTS server and everything is fine and dandy. Then you put it on live and BOOM, Infinite Storm again and again and again.

    I won't argue that closed testing can be correlated with buggy encounters, but again, it's not a main cause.

    Nah. I am not stating that closed testing has caused buggy encounters at all. I agree that the devs have not implemented the fixes for the bugs that were reported. Why that is, you and I can only guess. However, to say that closed testing has found all the bugs is not accurate. The more eyes there are, I believe, will expose more 'undocumented features.'

    Ownagejuice - unless you are Trion, you and I can only guess why they are doing this. It is their sandbox and they have reasons for doing what they do. They are not under any obligation to tell us why. I am not going to assume why they are doing it, just realize that they are doing it. I, like others, are trying to make the best out of the situation.

  12. #102
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    Unlimited testing ruins enjoyment of playing live. ANY time you're on live you feel guilty that you should really be testing because "everyone else is doing it," a negative arms race like USSR vs USA building up nukes because the other side is doing it.

    You still need to raid live, so when are you testing? At weird hours, new content is (presumably) hard so you need top players in top shape playing A-game to progress. So it's a management nightmare getting the roster for both live and PTS as well to make it count. It's like raiding in 2 separate games, day in and day out.

    Then on top of that, if devs aren't there, you don't even know if anything you do will affect the encounter. Maybe it's an older version and on internal server it's already been fixed or changed or will get canned. You don't know if something is intended or a bug or if it's a known issue even.

    And while you're on PTS, nothing you do "matters." It's like playing WoW on a side in relation to Rift to be competitive in Rift. Your character gets no PA exp from wipes like it would on live, no gear from kills. The kills don't really matter because it's subject to change. The time you spent crafting/respeccing on PTS doesn't amount to anything as you have to do it again. People know this, they don't try nearly as hard especially if it's 15th raid that week.

    With limited testing at least the burden was smaller and with back and forth feedback wit you'd feel the time spent "mattered" and feedback was considered, sometimes affecting evolution of the game. But unlimited testing isn't about affecting how the game plays out, it's just about getting countless reps in to beat the competition, making no one care about the live kills as well as feeling guilty when not practicing. You also weren't guilty when playing live because you know other guilds aren't taking advantage of testing except at limited time slots -- even if you don't have the said slots (we did NO hammerknell testing).
    <Addiction> GM(Rift). 4/4 FT, 5/5 EE.

  13. #103
    Plane Walker Jimhalpert's Avatar
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    Maybe after reading all these hardcore threads he simply doesn't like you.

  14. #104
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    First of all, I can't talk for my whole guild.

    If this is confirmed, like it seems to be, then I'll most likely quit the game, and I expect some of the pps in my guild to do the same.

    We tested HMs Trion, not as much as people think we did but still, we tested it for you and your game and got not even a single "thank you". Well, we got World First and such, but still. Worse, one of your dev was rude to one of our officer when we trolled Exploit a bit, as they disearved while getting crushed that hard after boasting that much.

    So now, I won't do something like free testing stuff for you anymore. Hire a pro team to do it, like you should. But when you are making a ****ty 10 man noone cares about a higher tier than all the other raids, and make all what's to come completely and unlimited PTS testing, then all what could be called "Competition" is gone from the game.

    Sadly, that's what most of the High End guilds are playing for. I don't give a **** about shiny loots, if we could all raid with the same given gear, I'd be the happiest in the world, coz it would mean that skill is what matters.

    Of course, you gave Special Olympics waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much advantages back in the days, everyone is aware of that in the raiding community (hence the madness of your dev when we trolled them). And of course it was a mistake you did. But open PTS testing isn't the solution, and will never be.
    Apotheosys

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ingor View Post
    First of all, I can't talk for my whole guild.

    If this is confirmed, like it seems to be, then I'll most likely quit the game, and I expect some of the pps in my guild to do the same.

    We tested HMs Trion, not as much as people think we did but still, we tested it for you and your game and got not even a single "thank you". Well, we got World First and such, but still. Worse, one of your dev was rude to one of our officer when we trolled Exploit a bit, as they disearved while getting crushed that hard after boasting that much.

    So now, I won't do something like free testing stuff for you anymore. Hire a pro team to do it, like you should. But when you are making a ****ty 10 man noone cares about a higher tier than all the other raids, and make all what's to come completely and unlimited PTS testing, then all what could be called "Competition" is gone from the game.

    Sadly, that's what most of the High End guilds are playing for. I don't give a **** about shiny loots, if we could all raid with the same given gear, I'd be the happiest in the world, coz it would mean that skill is what matters.

    Of course, you gave Special Olympics waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much advantages back in the days, everyone is aware of that in the raiding community (hence the madness of your dev when we trolled them). And of course it was a mistake you did. But open PTS testing isn't the solution, and will never be.
    Another constructive thread from ingor that mentioned the key word "Exploit".....You need to get a grip!

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